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Author Topic: War on Vanilla  (Read 21683 times)

Megas

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2019, 07:05:15 AM »

I like to see Reserve Deployment work like Fast Missile Racks or Missile Autoforge, but for fighters or replacement rate.  Either refill depleted wings to prevent rate drop, or boost replacement rate up 100%.

Re: Phase Mines
I think phase mines are fine as they are.  Slightly unfair, but not enough to be a problem.  It is certainly not Nintendo Hard like some games from the '80s and '90s.  The other phase ships need systems like that (not necessarily mines) so they can brawl too instead of being playership-only strike platforms.  If I have a gripe with mines, it is that AI can be a bit careless and place mines too close to allies - or itself - occasionally.  One time, I forced an enemy Doom to kill itself with its own mines.

I think what could be aggravating to some is not there is no counterplay, but the counterplay can be dull (or frustrating) to them... or counter to default AI combat behavior (which means more micromanagement to rein in your AI), which is probably deathball your fleet and wait until Doom runs out of CR or overextends and gets fatally punished.  Trying to chase a Doom, or letting your overeager AI chase it (without spending CP for an emergency escort), will probably result in mauled ships.

Re: Recall Device
Player without carrier skills abusing this system is not much better than a carrier officer unless the Astral is close to melee range of its target.  Player with carrier skills abusing this will wreck fleets... but not as well as a Paragon with a good loadout piloted by a combat specialist.

Re: Gladius
I have considered Gladius a more expensive Thunder knockoff without the EMP.  It is fragile for its cost.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 07:12:01 AM by Megas »
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Histidine

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2019, 07:49:57 AM »

Random didn't-consider-in-detail idea I had for Mine Strike was to have the mines spawn on the Doom (or station module) and travel to the target point through phase space at high speed, rather than teleporting there instantly. The intent is to require more skill (since you have to lead the target) and give the enemy time to react.
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lethargie

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2019, 09:41:24 AM »

I have been doing a new playthrough with very little mods to see how the last version goes. I must say that while I agree with some of the OP points, I disagree with a lot of them.

On logistic hullmod: If you want to play scavenger, your have to juggle fuel space, supply and space to actually grab what you find. They all shape how I plan my trip and I think thats a good game-play involvement. When I prepare my fleet for deserter hunting, any ship with battle affecting mod is off for me, while the supply/fuel one are no go for scavenge but fine for battle. With colonies now so slow to grow, and ship quite a bit more expensive, I have actually lugged and stored a capital I found with the fuel d-mod which I take out with an extra dram whenever I have an actual battle. To force choices and plan is a good feature of the new d-mod.

On small energy: if you remove the ammo on AM blaster I think I would be fine with them. Ion are perfect at what they do and the pd options are great
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Thaago

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2019, 10:32:09 AM »

Re:Gladius

I agree it could use a moderate amount more HP/armor. I do think it is quite useful to pair with other fast interceptors, because it is the only way for the 300 speed band to get kinetic damage and flares. The flares make an especially big difference when fighting Remnants, as they can make the AI waste the stored up charges on burst PD. Gladius + Talon is nice, and Gladius + Claw swarms very quickly for the anti-shield/lockdown.

That said, massed Sparks are just plain better because they have so much kill power, and for many purposes 200 speed is ok rather than 300; really only frigate hunting really wants 300 speed. So most of the time I'll just use the tougher and more numerous Broadsword.
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Baqar79

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2019, 07:03:22 PM »

Re:Gladius

I agree it could use a moderate amount more HP/armor. I do think it is quite useful to pair with other fast interceptors, because it is the only way for the 300 speed band to get kinetic damage and flares. The flares make an especially big difference when fighting Remnants, as they can make the AI waste the stored up charges on burst PD. Gladius + Talon is nice, and Gladius + Claw swarms very quickly for the anti-shield/lockdown.
It just seems weird that Gladius isn't definitively better than the cheaper Broadswords (which also get flares, and according to the description they have an unlimited amount, not sure if that is true though).  I don't use Talons as I try to go for fighters that will keep the casualties down.  However I haven't really tried playing around with Claw wings much though.

I think I would be content with them if they simply had their hull and armour buffed to actually make them sound as described ("well-armored" isn't true at the moment, as it has exactly the same hull & armour stats that the Thunder has which is much faster, has double the engagement range and is cheaper to boot).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 07:04:55 PM by Baqar79 »
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Thaago

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2019, 08:07:42 PM »

I agree, they are certainly overpriced at 10 right now. I think... 7 would be good for their current performance. Boost their hull and armor like everyone has said and they would be worth 8. They work with other 300 speed fighters to kill frigates very fast, but thats their only advantage really.
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Morbo513

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2019, 08:29:57 PM »

I'd like to see IR Pulse lasers' range increased to be more-or-less on par with Assault Gun/Autocannon. Can't remember how much OP it costs by default, but even with that single buff it has enough drawbacks to make one of those two ballistic weapons more compelling when the option's available.
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lethargie

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2019, 05:24:57 AM »

Ir pulse already got more effective range than autocannon , autocannon have horrible accuracy that degrade with sustained shooting. The assault gun is really what makes the IR pale, super accurate, flux efficient, longer ranged and better against armor.
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Megas

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2019, 05:54:48 AM »

I rather have light autocannon in the hybrid of the Shrike (P) instead of another IR Pulse Laser.  Accuracy is secondary when you desperately need shot range and/or anti-shield.
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lethargie

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2019, 06:29:24 AM »

I'm not sure I would. I know the real thing that I would put is a railgun. Railgun is in my opinion the reason that ballistic slot is so usefull.
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Megas

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2019, 06:37:53 AM »

I'm not sure I would. I know the real thing that I would put is a railgun. Railgun is in my opinion the reason that ballistic slot is so usefull.
Well, if I have railgun and enough OP to afford it, then sure.  Shrike (P) is so OP-starved even with Loadout Design 3 that I often put light autocannon instead of dual light autocannon or railgun just to squeeze out more OP for flux stats or another hullmod.

But the comparion was IR Pulse Laser to Light Autocannon or Light Assault Gun.  Shrike (P) is superior to Shrike because it can mount a 600 range anti-shield weapon in the hybrid.  Standard Shrike is simply bad at non-beam loadouts.
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lethargie

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2019, 07:58:21 AM »

yes, And I was pointing out how debatable that is. If I had to choose between light autocannon and IR pulse I think I would use IR pulse.

why I would do that is because light autocannon is less flux efficient, does barely more damage to shield and a lot less to armor. The range difference is also, on my opinion not really there because of accuracy problem.

This is a bit less true for capital ship that equip ITD. 600 become 960 vs the 800 for 500 basse. Even then a 160 range difference is not huge when accounting for accuracy.

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Cosmitz

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2019, 08:23:02 AM »

Random didn't-consider-in-detail idea I had for Mine Strike was to have the mines spawn on the Doom (or station module) and travel to the target point through phase space at high speed, rather than teleporting there instantly. The intent is to require more skill (since you have to lead the target) and give the enemy time to react.

This combined with a bit of 'scatter' to where it ends up after you click will be enough in my book to remove the 'f to remove ships'.
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Alex

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2019, 09:04:54 AM »

Random didn't-consider-in-detail idea I had for Mine Strike was to have the mines spawn on the Doom (or station module) and travel to the target point through phase space at high speed, rather than teleporting there instantly. The intent is to require more skill (since you have to lead the target) and give the enemy time to react.

Oh, hey, missed this! That's an interesting idea mechanically, but man, the mine is not designed to look good while moving fast, let alone super fast.
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eidolad

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2019, 09:43:18 PM »

For me the presence of a Doom or two in an enemy fleet gets them the initial targeting priority for (some of or all of) my fighter squadrons once they've committed to operations on the front line.  In my own ship, they force me to keep shields up and watch that I don't offer an easy attack.  They can really hurt/divert things in their immediate area and deserve to be countered early.  Once I've learned to account for them:  as a class, I've lost ships to them but not more than other heavy cruiser level threats. 

I think that they are certainly a strategic concern in enemy fleets, but too fragile to field myself and give to AI Captains.  A heavy cruiser slot is just too important.  Game-wise, they are a really nice addition and change the starscape as the premier "big phase threat" in vanilla.  To be honest, I would likely fear them more if they wandered around "uncloaking" and delivering close range quad Sabot salvos followed by an alpha strike (and loitering only to finish the opponent if it is safe to do so).  Phase movement is an extreme advantage.

Or simply loitering to help as a finisher...waiting for their chance to say hi with a pair of Reapers.  Patiently...like a spider.

Or worse:  give them fast straight-line speed (while phased) and give them a rear-offset-dispensing dual mine system...oooooooooooh my.

______

Ion weapons can be the little domino falling that changes the outcome of an entire battle.

Otherwise...I really have seen no objective difference in my AI Captains whether their ship had an energy-heavy loadout or a ballistics heavy one.  (IR) Pulse lasers or Autocannons setup?  I'm fine with either but tend to like ballistics for the main weapons for the pure dakka, and tend to like energy weapons for suppression oriented setups.

Oh the Tac Laser.  75 damage.  Mounted early and often before I settle a design down.  The fact that this thing keeps enemy shields up *alone* pays the price for just one of them.  Mount enough of them to pressure the shields (down) on enemy frigates, and you've just bought the price of that destroyer.  And three or four of them on a fast cruiser is simply a stock weapon fitment (leaving ample budget for other stuff).  Those shieldless pirate designs become targets.

The only energy weapon I'm underwhelmed with is the PD Laser.  I find it under-powered and a pair of them (8 OPs) isn't up to killing heavy missiles in most cases.  Two PD lasers don't have good odds to stop a Reaper even with a long dwell time on the target, even though they purpose-built PD weapons.  A pair of PD Lasers are challenged by a pair of  Salamanders (eh perhaps that is balanced). Three appear to be required in a given critical arc.  That is a problem when many ships have two small energy mounts for the aft aspect.  In any case there more bursty PD energy weapons available...



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