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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Skill Tree Discussion  (Read 4048 times)

SteelSoldier

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Skill Tree Discussion
« on: May 25, 2019, 04:12:05 PM »



 I came up with an alternate way of leveling up your character in starsector, this is just a concept, the whole idea would of leveling combat/industry/leadership/technology to 3 and then being able to put 3 points on each one of the different skills of that different tree, you would instead branch out from the center, each one of the stars would give you a bonus depending on the size of the star, the  stars which are larger would allow you to assign a passive/skill of your choice to them, so the progression would become somewhat modular, allowing players to change at will, you could possibly attach skills from different types on different colours but they would only grant half the effect.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 11:04:05 AM by SteelSoldier »
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TrashMan

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Re: Alternate Skill Tree (Constellation)
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2019, 02:14:47 AM »

Interdasting.

I cannot say I'm too fond of the current system, mostly because of all the wasted points. You use 12 points just for unlocking and all those 12 points do nothing.

My own personal suggestion would be something like this:

Aptitude points are not assigned, they are simply a sum of all the points spent in a tree. This means a player has more points that go into functional skills and thus, leveling can be slowed down (it really needs to be slowed down IMHO, especially early on).

Also, with aptitudes being able to have much higher "levels", one can play around with unlocks differently. A skill might require total of Combat Aptitude 8 (meaning you had to take 8 other combat skills), rather than being limited to climbing up a 3-point in a skill.
for example, that +1 Burn? Instead of it being only available if you taken he 2 previous skills (which you might not even want) instead it might be available if you spent 6 point in tech total, regardless of which tech skills you've taken.  But this means that all skills would be broken up individually - you can take Helmsmanship 3 skill without taking 1 or 2, but you still have to spend point on X combat skills before that. Obviously, he mockup doesn't cover that scenario
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DaLagga

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Re: Alternate Skill Tree (Constellation)
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2019, 05:07:47 AM »

I'm not a fan of skill trees because they almost always force you to take lower tier skills that you don't want and have no intention of using just to get to the good stuff at the top of the tree.  Although, as TrashMan pointed out, the current system has a similar problem whereby you have to waste points (as many as 12) just to unlock the ability to get the skills you want.  I think a simple solution without completely redesigning the whole system would be to have those basic category skills (Combat, Technology, etc.) give bonuses of their own instead of just eating skill points.  As I recall, this used to be the case but was changed a while back. 
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SteelSoldier

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Re: Alternate Skill Tree (Constellation)
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2019, 11:03:40 AM »

Basic category skills giving bonuses would definitely help a lot
Even something as simple as 1% more damage per level of combat would make skill point distribution feel less wasteful

I do like the idea you suggested of aptitude points not being assigned, perhaps when  you reach a certain threshold of assigned points in a category, you would be granted a tiny bonus based of the category
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StarScum

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2019, 11:20:24 AM »

I don't understand what the point of the skill dumps are. Just lower the level cap if your going to force people to dumb their points into something.
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Schwartz

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2019, 11:20:41 AM »

To me there's zero problem with the current skill system. The upfront cost of 3 points per category is accounted for in the overall number of points you get.

The only thing that needs to be fiddled with is the skills themselves.
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SteelSoldier

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2019, 12:35:21 PM »

The only thing that needs to be fiddled with is the skills themselves.

I can see that, there are some skills that are definitely more cost effective than others and some categories need more skills
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Alex

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2019, 08:30:32 PM »

(I just wanted to say, a big thumbs up for the quality animated gif in the OP. That's good stuff right there, and makes me want to play a game with that sort of skill tree.)

I've actually got some very specific plans for what to do with skills, but unfortunately Hegemony regula...

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Flying Birdy

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2019, 08:39:12 PM »

(I just wanted to say, a big thumbs up for the quality animated gif in the OP. That's good stuff right there, and makes me want to play a game with that sort of skill tree.)

I've actually got some very specific plans for what to do with skills, but unfortunately Hegemony regula...

TRANSMISSION ERROR



Not gonna lie, but this thread just got really interesting really quickly.
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Cosmitz

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2019, 09:11:00 PM »

(and makes me want to play a game with that sort of skill tree.)

Well, there's always the mammoth tree of Path of Exile.

But more ontopic, the skilltree went through some decent iterations, but the current problem with it is related to how gamey it feels and very hardwired. I mean, it works fine for us players that've been here forever, we all know our level 50 builds (really only three or four), but even so, everyone would rather have an extra skill or two. Since at that level, it just feels that you're always getting 95% of what you want but just caaaan't get to 100% and that's frustrating. If we only could have gotten 50-60% of the skills, that would'ave felt better because you're always playing against the other skills, and not the entire build.

However, for new players, given also no respec, it can feel a bit arcane let alone not having enough information to understand what's useful and what isn't for them, and seeing how they'll mostly hit 20-30 or so before either restarting with mods or something, it's mostly just 'there'. It also cannot be understated that it's a huge choice paralysis, since players may choose to not put points into skills before they understand what they want, and the first 10 levels will just be them playing at a disadvantage. Coupled with 'buy-in', which indeed, is significantly reduced post.. 0.8?, anyhows, coupled with that, it just leads to a very shaky entrance into the tree.

I have a saying (stolen from the great Sid Meier), if the decision seems important enough, me as a gamer, will optimize the fun out of the game and alt-tab then read forum rundowns or Youtube videos on skills or for two-three hours instead of actually playing the game. That's why i think a respec is /so/ important in games and should be a mandatory feature.

As for gamey, the issue lies soley that at this moment it's a mix between map/galaxy/60-hourplaythrough bonuses (colonies), campaign-map/currentsessionplaythrough bonuses (fuel use) and actual combat bonuses/thebattlerightnow (the rest of the 60% of the skills). Now that i lay them out like this, and given combat is the core of the game, it might be cool to have a sort of trickle down system? For each 2-3 combat skill-ups you get one campaign map upgrade, and for each 2-3 of those you get one galaxy upgrade. They can be tiered to say, your level as a commander (Commander, Captain, Admiral) so it doesn't seem too schlocky.

What i will say about the skilltree and would hate for it to change is that i love how most skill/skilllevels feel hefty. Like worth putting an actual skillpoint into it. My mental ideal for skills that you get in RPGs is that it has to feel like slotting a coin to get that bonus and getting a chunky return, that's why i'm more tilted towards perks instead of 'classic' multitiered trees. Like not 2% extra gatling gun damage while between 50 and 55% flux or other crud which you have to upgrade 18 times to play into a more 'diablo-esque' stat creep.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 01:33:07 PM by Cosmitz »
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TrashMan

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2019, 01:09:10 AM »

To me there's zero problem with the current skill system. The upfront cost of 3 points per category is accounted for in the overall number of points you get.

The only thing that needs to be fiddled with is the skills themselves.

But what's the point of those categories to begin with? You could completely remove the aptitude point allocation and the game would be better for it. Having aptitudes giving a bonus is kinda pointless too - since you then have two different kinds of points (skills points and aptitude points). Why?
Just merge them or get rid of aptitude. It's far simpler and more intuitive to just put points into skills directly without some separate category (aptitude).
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Serenitis

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2019, 03:45:25 AM »

The aptitude 'skills' felt like less of a burden when they used to give a small passive bonus on thier own.

If we're dead set on keeping the aptitude->skill setup, one of the possible ways of making it feel less like an empty skill tax would be to bring this back. But with a twist....

Each aptitude gives a small boost to some ability for every level you invest into it. But every game, that ability will be different.
eg: Combat Aptitude could have the following skills in it's 'pool':
  • maximum CR
  • CR recovery
  • combat speed
  • damage reduction
  • damage output

Every new game on generation, performs a lookup for each of the possible aptitudes and RNDs one entry from a defined list. And that's the passive skill that gets assigned to the player for that aptitude for that game.
Each game then would be slightly different even given identical start settings.

Ditching aptitudes altogether would probably make things a bit more straightforward. But if I had to keep them, I'd do something like that ^
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SCC

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2019, 06:49:24 AM »

I think that the biggest issue I have with skills is that they are all over the place. Not all combat-related skills are in combat section. Not all colony-related skills are in industry section. Not all gimmicks are in the tech section. I don't really think of any aptitude as a whole, I just pick skills I like the most, then think what else can I get without wasting too many points. If I liked to fly carriers (I don't, really), I would have never put any points in combat aptitude, since I only put spare skill points in it.
Pro tip, Alex: if you want to pretend to spoil something, don't actually say it before not-spoiling it. We know that (another) skill rework is coming.

SteelSoldier

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2019, 09:07:08 AM »

(I just wanted to say, a big thumbs up for the quality animated gif in the OP. That's good stuff right there, and makes me want to play a game with that sort of skill tree.)

I've actually got some very specific plans for what to do with skills, but unfortunately Hegemony regula...

TRANSMISSION ERROR



Thank you Alex, I appreciate you and all people who liked/looked at the thread or brought something to the discussion, I am really looking forward to what changes you will bringing to the skills, I like seeing the gameplay being shaken a bit with new things and changes, it leads to a fresh interesting experience
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cjuicy

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Re: Skill Tree Discussion
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2019, 12:14:47 PM »

Honestly, that skill tree reminds me of Crosscode's. Absolutely love the idea of having a star-pattern tree, though that might just be me.
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