Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hostile Activity (09/01/22)

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Author Topic: Kitting a Conquest  (Read 13638 times)

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 6543
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2019, 07:48:02 PM »

..
Yes-yes, you was doing your typical sim-fight. Get out of the sim and play the actual game.

CR damage reduction will be after CR boosted shot power got reduced by armor. And unless that armor reduction is less than 10% of the shot power, CR protection bonus will make matters worse for you.

...

Because every enemy you fight will have every defensive combat skill... Oh wait, they don't. In fact, it is incredibly rare to encounter one that stacks all of them.

I laid out a clear explanation of every factor I was and was not including in my examples. Both from statements from Alex and also from hard in game testing of damage, I believe they are accurate. I've worked through the math, laying out every factor involved. Your examples don't state what the conditions are and do not get the numbers correct.

Lets work through that CR example to see if they actually cancel in favor of defense! Lets say energy so no damage types, 100 damage vs 100 residual armor, just for simplicity.

No skills: 100 * (100/(100+100)) = 100 * .5 = 50

+10% damage on offense, -10% damage received.
.9*110*(110/(110+100)) = .9*.110*.5238 = 51.86

Oops! Favors the attacker, not the defender.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2019, 10:08:24 PM »


Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?

Yes. Experimentally verified and alex told me personally in a discussion of the armor damage reduction formula as applied to hull damage.

Nice. So, to clarify things, its just hull getting damaged and "armor" is taken only as a fixed reduction coefficient based on the percentage of the total armor value and no armor specific effects are apllied to it?
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2019, 10:15:47 PM »

Because every enemy you fight will have every defensive combat skill...

No because that one with them will ruin your perfect plans for galaxy domination.

I laid out a clear explanation of every factor I was and was not including in my examples.

Which was wrong in the very basis.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1651
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2019, 09:10:50 PM »


Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?

Yes. Experimentally verified and alex told me personally in a discussion of the armor damage reduction formula as applied to hull damage.

Nice. So, to clarify things, its just hull getting damaged and "armor" is taken only as a fixed reduction coefficient based on the percentage of the total armor value and no armor specific effects are apllied to it?


I do not know about armor speficic effects but so long as they apply to the reduction formula and not the armor damage itself they probably apply.

Storm Needlers really dont have a problem with armor or hull compared to mark IX
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2019, 06:15:59 AM »

I made some tests of my own.

No captain. Hullmods for survivability and flux. Didnt try to outturn. Timer starts after my first shot.



Single Storm Needler.

Time to kill sim Dominator - 03:32.



Similar OP loads.


Single Gauss

04:38



Two Mark IX

03:53



Single Mjolnir

02:49



Mark IX + Devastator

02:29



Mark IX + HAG

01:46



Mark IX + Hellbore + double Light Mortars

01:11




For a baseline:

Mark IX + Hellbore + Heavy Blaster + dual Assault Chainguns

00:23

Trading of Mark IX for Storm Needler changes nothing.




Conclusion:

KE is utterly useless as a main weapon. For a support weapon Mark IX is the best option since its only 8 OP. All the fancy  weapons actually just suck. Low tec archaic weaponry is the best waifu.

PS Also tried AI controlled scenarios. It was already said somewhere by someone but I will repeat - AI got brocken if it has less range than opponent. Like completely brocken. Do not even bother with AI gun ships wo decent range advantage.

PPS Who even plays in the no-skill ships!? My condolences. It is a pain.
Logged

StarScum

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2019, 06:42:11 AM »

Alright, so after running my own experiments which aren't nearly as exhaustive as the ones above I've come to the conclusion that Mjolenor (or however you spell it, I haven't seen Avengers) aren't as good as I thought they'd be.

It's disappointing what the guy above said. It really is true that basic, old weapons are better than fancy advanced ones. Which I suppose makes sense given the setting; an AK47 will serve you better in some backwater war-torn Hellhole cut off from civilization than some fancy delicate laser rifles.

Still, as a player you want some progression and fitting your tub with the same-old standbyes will get boring. I think the solution is to make these weapons become truly rare and powerful rather than only somewhat rare and underwhelming. Think of the advanced weapons systems of the Imperium of Man in 40k and how they've straight up lost the blueprints (or STCs) for a lot of their cool *** and how they go to such great lengths to recover rare weapons lost in the field; the game should treat advanced weapons like that.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 06:47:14 AM by StarScum »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 10766
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2019, 07:48:54 AM »

Mjolnir as Thor's hammer is from Norse mythology.

Mjolnirs for Conquest is good, but its flux costs are high enough that it is less than ideal if your primary enemies do not need that much power to kill.  Pirates certainly do not need such fancy weapons to kill.  Flux efficient loadout that AI can use without killing itself is more useful.
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2865
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2019, 08:34:25 AM »

Well you are trying to kill a dominator which has crap shields and lots of armor, so it's no surprise that you found that weapons which do double damage to shields and half damage to armor made less of a difference... KE are necessary to get through shields, HE is necessary to get through armor, they do different things. Try the same test on a ship with good shields and bad armor (like apogee) and you will get different results.

Also, performance in a 1v1 isn't always the point of a weapon. Gauss is for abusing range advantage so it has intentionally worse ttk for balance.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2019, 09:28:09 AM »

Sim has only d-moded Eagle to offer. And it has somewhat harder shields (0,8). But in general its way weaker and its Time-to-Kill is noticeably lower. Pristine one and Aurora are too fast.

Also the great thing about Hellbore is that AI do not do "vent in your face". With Storm Needler (and any low per shot damage guns) its typical move so you have to raise enemy's flux again and again.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 6543
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2019, 10:00:40 AM »

I would hesitate to declare kinetic is useless as a main weapon when the data point is fighting a Dominator (a heavy armor ship), especially in a 1v1 test, which are useful but don't tell the whole story. This is because, as I'm sure you know, in a real fight the AI has escorts and will try and retreat to vent. There needs to be enough kinetic to break shields in a reasonably quick time frame AND enough HE to punish the enemy once shields are down. This calculation also changes depending on enemy: bring more HE vs low tech and more Kinetic vs high tech and Remnants.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2019, 11:43:29 AM »

And this is why missiles exist. But the funniest fact is that even Sabots work best with Hellbore. AI invariably keeps its shield up and gets overloaded.

This way, for the Conquest, priorities look like that:

1. Missiles. Here you actually tune the mix up adding KE, HE or Frag in right proportions.
2. Big mounts. Mark IX and Hellbore. Since they are only 14 OP and provide best mix of damage in the game for these points.
3. Mediums. Final touch. They are a thing mostly if opponent is slow enough to get into brawling range. Or there is a decent ECM. Evything else is not critical.
4. Small ones. PD.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1651
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2019, 12:15:15 PM »

Why not a storm needler and hellbore?

Also if the only ships you have to shoot at are dominators then yes those fits work fine.

But not every ship is a dominator, with huge inefficient shields, massive armor, and 30 speed.

As soon as you have to take down destroyers or frigates you will really like having the weapons that can hit them
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2019, 12:42:58 PM »

Storm Needler is 10 points (or one medium missile pod) more OP than Mark IX.

As soon as I have to take on fleets I, for the very least, level up. But, honestly, even without skill Antique Conquest can handle small targets.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1651
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2019, 06:05:00 PM »

10 OP of worth it. You show yourself its better than two mark IX for only 2 OP more
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
    • View Profile
Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2019, 12:29:53 AM »

10 OP of worth it. You show yourself its better than two mark IX for only 2 OP more

Quote
Single Storm Needler.
Time to kill sim Dominator - 03:32.

Not worth it.

Quote
Two Mark IX
03:53

Not worth it.

Quote
Mark IX + Hellbore + Heavy Blaster + dual Assault Chainguns
00:23

Worth it.

Is it that hard to realize that since desired TTK is 23 seconds, Storm Needler with its generous 212 seconds is not the major damage dealer here? And this is why:

Quote
Trading of Mark IX for Storm Needler changes nothing.

And by picking Storm Needler you are just wasting 10 OP which could be better spent elsewhere.

It was said that there are other types of opponents with stronger shields. Yes, there are. But its not that they dont have armor which will turn SN into a weapon what is dealing single digit damage per shot.

You see, this is the problem:



Replacing Enforcer with Brilliant will not make SN a better tool since Brilliant have even more armor than this particular Enforcer and it has even more flux to vent into your face while making you break its 0,6 shield again and again.

I tried spawning the Remnants in the campaign.

Fulgent with 4000 hp, 360 armor, 7700 flux and 0,48 shield managed to vent 6 (six) times before it got destroyed.

When I switched to Mark IX + Hellbore, Fulgent with 4000 hp, 360 armor, 8700 flux and 0,43 shield didnt vent even once.

Brilliant and Storm Needler? I literally lost count of the ventings. It was above 20 (twenty).

So, in practical sense, against Fulgent and with the Storm Needler I had to remove 46200 flux points, while with Mark IX + Hellbore combo - only 8700. Not counting flux which was replenished when shield was off and spent on weaponry.

Against those advanced enemies Storm Needler is even less usefull as a primary weapon. All it does is slowly raising their flux level giving them plenty of time to react and their typical reaction is just to ignore it. This is not how you kill things and they know it.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6