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Author Topic: Kitting a Conquest  (Read 13286 times)

Lucky33

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2019, 10:36:46 AM »


ONE Storm Needler does 750 DPS for 650 flux/second and uses 18 OP on a Conquest


Its only about 112 DPS against hull of anything from cruiser and above.
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Thaago

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2019, 11:04:00 AM »

TLDR vs Dominator Hull:
Storm Needler no skills: is 250 dps / 650 fps
With skills: 453.6 dps 650 fps

Mk IX no skills 200dps / 400 fps
With skills 312.5 dps / 400 fps
---

It does a bit over double that. Lets take a pretty beefy armor of a Dominator. It has 1500 armor, so its 5% residual rating will be 75. A Storm Needler's per shot damage is 75, or 37.5 for armor penetration because it is kinetic.

Dps = 750 * (37.5/(75+37.5)) = 750 * .333 = 250 (storm needler vs dominator hull, no skills)

Not good at all! Targeting Analysis 3 will bring the factor from .333 to .429 (nearly a 30% increase in dps vs hull from that skill, nice), which could be cancelled by the Evasive Action 3 perk. With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484, for a total dps of 453.6 dps.

A Mk IX with its 200 damage shots will be doing:

dps = 350 * (100/(75+100)) = 350 * .5714 = 200

With all skills: 312.5 dps

This shows an interesting fact: skills help the relative efficiency of the Storm Needler more than the Mk IX, allowing it to start to close the gap. The dps/fps ratio ends at ~ .7 for the storm needler, and .78 for the Mk IX with skills, up from .385 and .5 respectively.

Conclusion: without skills, the Storm Needler is a specialty anti-shield weapon vs heavily armored targets. With skills, it is almost as efficient a hull killer, with significantly higher dps for a single large slot. Skilled vs skilled armor (enemy officer) brings the calculation back to the start (a little worse for both).
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 11:06:23 AM by Thaago »
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bowman

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2019, 11:34:26 AM »

The Conquest is my favorite capital ship in the game, with Odyssey as second. I never load it symmetrically, it simply doesn't have the flux to do so and flying max-speed in the middle of an enemy fleet to make use of such a loadout will quickly result in your death even with the ship system letting you flip around to retreat. I also completely ignore the missile slots- they're extremely powerful if you make use of them but they also suck up an immense amount of OP. I use the spare OP from not using missiles (and not equipping it fully/symmetrically) to load it up with quite a few hullmods.

I will say that this is with a fairly high level character, as can be seen on the top left. I have 10% bonus OP, 10% higher max vents/capacitors, and the shield is -25% flux/dmg (combined with Hardened shields) from the relevant combat skill. Even with an entirely unskilled captain though this loadout still works fine, you probably just have to drop one of the less important hullmods due to losing 10% bonus OP.

Side 1 (You can mirror this if you have two Conquests so you can circle opposite sides of the battlefield/focus fire one target and not block each other):
1x Gauss, 1x Hellbore (6 OP for 750 HE damage to tear open armor), 2x Hypervelocity Drivers, Ion Beam

Side 2:
2x Devastator; If you can't find Devastators then Flak/Dual Flak work just as well for the intended purpose. I prefer Devastators because they're actually HE damage instead of Frag and deal 500 Dps meaning anything unshielded (Hounds, Cerberus, fighters) is pretty much instantly killed.
PD Lasers in small energy slots; Burst PD in both rear-facing engine-covering turret arcs, Burst PD in two forward-facing arcs

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Goumindong

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2019, 11:57:50 AM »

TLDR vs Dominator Hull:
Storm Needler no skills: is 250 dps / 650 fps
With skills: 453.6 dps 650 fps

Mk IX no skills 200dps / 400 fps
With skills 312.5 dps / 400 fps
---


True but the Storm Needler will hit the same spot every time. And the Mark IX will hit a different spot every time. Functionally the storm needler does a LOT more hull DPS and armor DPS(especially because of armor minimum damage %) unless the target can consistently stay outside of its range.

Either way you've got another couple slots there to make hull damage a thing that happens as fast as you need it to.
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Grievous69

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2019, 12:22:55 PM »

I'm just fascinated how every thread about Conquest gains so much traction, almost everyone has its own build for it that just works and I think it shows that Conquest actually IS a well designed ship. Sure broadside ships are not optimal and seem kinda pointless in this game, but I wish every ship had the same build variety as this bad boy.

Anyways I also leave out missiles for hullmods and more vents, and tbh my build is pretty similar to bowman's. I just put phase lance on the medium energy offensive side and give the other side a Heavy autocannon and Dual flak so that it can actually kill something with those Devastators eventually if I'm busy fighting bigger targets on the left side.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

Thaago

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2019, 12:30:40 PM »

Yup, its almost like it in general works, and then everyone has their tricks for getting it to be a true killer...

I'm not a fan of too many hullmods on ship in general - its extremely rare for me to put on more than 3 or so on anything.  I usually go Sabots on the medium missiles, Locusts on the larges. 2 Locusts will trivialize all the enemy carriers in a fleet.
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Goumindong

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2019, 12:37:55 PM »

The trick to making a broadside ship a true killer is the broad-slide.
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Lucky33

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2019, 11:28:24 PM »

With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484

There is only one skill that boosts guns base damage - Ordnance Expertise III. It gives +15% not 25. Which countered by Damage Control III and its -25% damage to hull.

As far as I know no other bonuses are applied to residual armor. Not sure about damage type. I assumed just as you do that KE is still 0,5 against it. This might be wrong.

So it will be something like:

Shot power 75 * 1,15 (OE III) * 0,5 (KE) = 43,125

Armor 1500 + 10% (AWM) + 300 (HA) = 1950 * 0,05 = 97,5

43,125/(97,5+43,125)=0,31

43,125 * 0,31 = 13,36875 * 0,75 (DC III) = 10,03 per shot

10 shots per second = 100 DPS

If you are to assume that all the armor bonuses apply to residual armor you would get +150 armor all the time and another 0,5 reduction for KE from Advanced Countermeasures I. Personally I dont think this is the case.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 11:54:10 PM by Lucky33 »
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Goumindong

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2019, 12:16:01 PM »

I mean... There is a relatively hard limit of 11.25 damage/shot (or 7.5 damage/shot) and as a result the Storm Needler ends up doing a lot more damage.

And... there is an issue with armor stripping/hull hitting with regards to hitting fresh armor due to inaccuracy and as a result the Storm Needler ends up doing a lot more damage.

Using the simple armor formula it takes 32 seconds for a Storm Needler to strip the armor from a 1900 armor target. It takes 64 seconds for a Mark IX to strip the armor from a 1900 armor target. And this is assuming perfect accuracy and no recoil on the mark IX...

Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.

Its true that the Mark IX only does 20% less DPS than the Storm Needler against hull... But like.. you have to hit the same point of the hull in order to do this and the mark x can barely hit the broadside of a barn.
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Thaago

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2019, 01:55:26 PM »

With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484

There is only one skill that boosts guns base damage - Ordnance Expertise III. It gives +15% not 25. Which countered by Damage Control III and its -25% damage to hull.

As far as I know no other bonuses are applied to residual armor. Not sure about damage type. I assumed just as you do that KE is still 0,5 against it. This might be wrong.

So it will be something like:

Shot power 75 * 1,15 (OE III) * 0,5 (KE) = 43,125

Armor 1500 + 10% (AWM) + 300 (HA) = 1950 * 0,05 = 97,5

43,125/(97,5+43,125)=0,31

43,125 * 0,31 = 13,36875 * 0,75 (DC III) = 10,03 per shot

10 shots per second = 100 DPS

If you are to assume that all the armor bonuses apply to residual armor you would get +150 armor all the time and another 0,5 reduction for KE from Advanced Countermeasures I. Personally I dont think this is the case.

Having 100% CR raises damage done by all weapons by 10%. Bonuses in SS stack additively (while penalties multiply), giving 15% from OE3 + 10% from CR = +25%. Target analysis 3 adds +50% to shot strength for purposes of armor penetration.

The percentage damage blocked by residual armor is calculated using damage type, but the total damage is still calculated against hull, not armor.

For a kinetic against hull with residual armor: damage per shot = (per shot damage)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

Or

DPS = (base dps)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

The calculations I showed were for unskilled vs unskilled and skilled vs unskilled. I did the calculations this way because its the most controllable case: its impossible to know what skills the AI is using, but knowing what player skills do is extremely valuable. I pointed out that the skilled vs skilled would be similar to unskilled vs unskilled, probably a little worse.

See this amazing post by Foof.
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Lucky33

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2019, 03:30:53 PM »


Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?
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Lucky33

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2019, 03:36:54 PM »

With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484

There is only one skill that boosts guns base damage - Ordnance Expertise III. It gives +15% not 25. Which countered by Damage Control III and its -25% damage to hull.

As far as I know no other bonuses are applied to residual armor. Not sure about damage type. I assumed just as you do that KE is still 0,5 against it. This might be wrong.

So it will be something like:

Shot power 75 * 1,15 (OE III) * 0,5 (KE) = 43,125

Armor 1500 + 10% (AWM) + 300 (HA) = 1950 * 0,05 = 97,5

43,125/(97,5+43,125)=0,31

43,125 * 0,31 = 13,36875 * 0,75 (DC III) = 10,03 per shot

10 shots per second = 100 DPS

If you are to assume that all the armor bonuses apply to residual armor you would get +150 armor all the time and another 0,5 reduction for KE from Advanced Countermeasures I. Personally I dont think this is the case.

Having 100% CR raises damage done by all weapons by 10%. Bonuses in SS stack additively (while penalties multiply), giving 15% from OE3 + 10% from CR = +25%. Target analysis 3 adds +50% to shot strength for purposes of armor penetration.

The percentage damage blocked by residual armor is calculated using damage type, but the total damage is still calculated against hull, not armor.

For a kinetic against hull with residual armor: damage per shot = (per shot damage)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

Or

DPS = (base dps)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

The calculations I showed were for unskilled vs unskilled and skilled vs unskilled. I did the calculations this way because its the most controllable case: its impossible to know what skills the AI is using, but knowing what player skills do is extremely valuable. I pointed out that the skilled vs skilled would be similar to unskilled vs unskilled, probably a little worse.

See this amazing post by Foof.

CR bonuses are mutually nullifying (there is also 10% bonus to damage reduction).

There is nothing new to me under that link. This whole question is based on the assumption that residual armor is still counted as "armor" hence 0,5 reduction for KE. If not - welp...
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Thaago

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2019, 03:39:38 PM »

* sigh *

CR bonuses are not nullified because I was doing a skilled vs unskilled, as I explained multiple times. Even if you are doing skilled vs skilled, the order in which damage reduction is applied will change the math.

So far everything you have posted has been wrong, so I assumed you'd never read that link.
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Lucky33

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2019, 04:45:53 PM »

* sigh *

CR bonuses are not nullified because I was doing a skilled vs unskilled, as I explained multiple times. Even if you are doing skilled vs skilled, the order in which damage reduction is applied will change the math.

So far everything you have posted has been wrong, so I assumed you'd never read that link.

Yes-yes, you was doing your typical sim-fight. Get out of the sim and play the actual game.

CR damage reduction will be after CR boosted shot power got reduced by armor. And unless that armor reduction is less than 10% of the shot power, CR protection bonus will make matters worse for you.

If you would read the link you posted you'd notice that:

A Note on Hull Damage

Patch 0.8a introduced a modifier on hull damage that equals 5% of the Total Armor Value you have when you enter the battle. This 5% value is fixed value that does not go down and permanently gives hull a small reduction in damage. That means that for something like a Dominator (1500) with Heavy Armor (+300), you’re looking at 5% of 1800 armor, or a permanent 90 armor.

90 Armor doesn’t seem like much but it’s enough to seriously reduce some of the rapid-fire low damage per shot, high DPS weapons like Vulcans.
Vulcans are notoriously flux efficient: 25 damage per 1 flux spent with an overall DPS of 500. Fragmentation damage also does 100% damage to hull so any Vulcan that can get close to a armor-stripped ship is going to kill things extremely quickly and efficiently. However, 25 damage per shot is awfully low…

Damage = 25 * (25 / (25 + 90))
    = 5.43 Damage (78.2% reduction, reducing overall DPS to 109 from 500)


Author does not take into account frag type reduction for armor while calculating damage against residiual armor.

However.

You, here:


It does a bit over double that. Lets take a pretty beefy armor of a Dominator. It has 1500 armor, so its 5% residual rating will be 75. A Storm Needler's per shot damage is 75, or 37.5 for armor penetration because it is kinetic.


Clearly assumed that its not the case.

So this means its you who should read the links you have provided. And the only thing that is questionable in my calculations is that very same assumption. Which you was using anyway.
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Goumindong

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Re: Kitting a Conquest
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2019, 06:37:43 PM »


Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?

Yes. Experimentally verified and alex told me personally in a discussion of the armor damage reduction formula as applied to hull damage.
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