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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: The Pilgrim's Path (07/19/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5  (Read 650124 times)

Mira Lendin

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1020 on: April 21, 2022, 09:13:30 PM »

as long as this mod isn't actively interfering with others, I dont see why they couldn't make their OWN stuff resistant to say, superweapons.   It's not breaking your game, or the other mod
As stated before, i have no issue with that either, it's the comment that Nia left within their file is what showed their true motivation behind the change:
"// If you're not balancing your mods, I'll just counterbalans"
It's not about being a feature, it's about policing other mods they don't like.
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vok3

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1021 on: April 24, 2022, 09:03:09 AM »

I'm torn.  I very much like Kassadar, I like the Kassadar ships, I like most of the other ships, I like the Legio ships.  I even like the idea of the Legio and the attempt to make them a serious and interesting challenge.

But the Legio themselves are definitely becoming a "always turn these fuckheads off" thing.  They should not exist in this game.  They are poisonous to the game experience.  They impose themselves on the player, they force the player to play one particular way and focusing on one particular set of objectives, until Lucifron is satbombed.  The longer the player attempts to avoid addressing them, the worse of a problem they become and the more they disfigure the rest of the game experience.  They take away choices rather than adding them in and that alone makes them bad game design.

I would like to see a version of Legio that is an ordinary minor faction - well-entrenched, but no more of this "all invasions always succeed" crap - until such time as some trigger gets hit that turbocharges them into the present form.  The trigger could be toggleable on day 1 or 30 years later, depending on when or if the player desires.  That would be interesting and it would allow the player to scale the challenge to preference.  But the current implementation just forces itself in where it's not wanted and makes the whole game be about defeating them, disregarding anything else the player might want to be doing - and attempting to force a certain experience on the player regardless of player preferences particularly stands out given recent events. 

Anyway this is not a good player experience and I expect this effect is a major part of why people make comments like "always turn Legio off".

If I want to play as a super-pirate faction, right now the space commie faction in Vayra's are a much better way to do it, and if I want a threatening but beatable juggernaut to fight against the HamAgony does that well enough for a filthy casual like me.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1022 on: April 24, 2022, 10:03:49 AM »

I don't intend to change Legio. If you always turn them off, you're simply not the target audience for it, that's all there is to it. Making them yet another bad guy faction with an entrenched system just adds nothing new, you yourself pointed out there are plenty other options for that, and the toggle in the ini exists for a reason.

I'm still tweaking the trigger requirements however, but ultimately Legio are just an attempt at a challenging lategame threat. Probably not the best one anyone has ever made, but I don't have the time to make the next Templars.
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Chairman Suryasari

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1023 on: April 24, 2022, 11:04:10 AM »

Quote
   #enables the Legio Infernalis, an elite pirate faction. Disable if no balls.
   "enableLegio": true,
I mean you kinda taunting them i guess. JK.
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Tigasboss

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1024 on: May 01, 2022, 03:36:44 PM »

as long as this mod isn't actively interfering with others, I dont see why they couldn't make their OWN stuff resistant to say, superweapons.   It's not breaking your game, or the other mod
As stated before, i have no issue with that either, it's the comment that Nia left within their file is what showed their true motivation behind the change:
"// If you're not balancing your mods, I'll just counterbalans"
It's not about being a feature, it's about policing other mods they don't like.

You should add a line of code to your mod that makes the weapons do 1000% more damage to tahlan shipworks ships lol
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Great Wound

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1025 on: May 01, 2022, 04:04:51 PM »

You should add a line of code to your mod that makes the weapons do 1000% more damage to tahlan shipworks ships lol

Before a mod jumps in, a friendly reminder, Nia removed the code and discussion regarding in the thread is closed, you're welcome to open a dedicated thread in modding on the subject though.


Quote
   #enables the Legio Infernalis, an elite pirate faction. Disable if no balls.
   "enableLegio": true,
I mean you kinda taunting them i guess. JK.

If disabling Legio is a sign of no balls it's safe to say removing the Legio buffs is a sign Nia is also lacking.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 04:40:04 PM by Great Wound »
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julygrease

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1026 on: May 02, 2022, 02:31:52 PM »

Hello,
not sure if appreciated or at all wanted but I felt like giving some feedback regarding this mod. This comes from somebody who's never played modded before. I wanted to try Nex since the idea of having some conquering to do in the late game sounded alluring. Furthermore I planned to include some shippacks, with the main goal of keeping everything very vanilla in terms of balance. That's how I stumbled on this mod.
Another note: I've been playing this save file since March and I noticed that you've update your mod since then. Not quite sure how much has changed and how much of my experience is still up to date. The version I've been playing on was 0.8.

Very early it was qute clear that your mod was special. Not only do the ships look right at home (since it was my first time playing the new patch, at times I wasn't sure if that new ship was modded or a freshly added vanilla one) but also feel great to play. There is a lot of creativity here. I was blown away when I first found the home system of Kassadar. Their ships are amazing too, even the reskins are elevated by the theme and special hullmod.
I fell in love with the Castigator (LI) right away. It is what I wanted to Eagle to always be and turned out to be my most flown ship by the end.
And imagine my surprise when I found out that even the Halbmond was from your mod. The mini quest offers a unique spin on things and keeps you guessing what cool blueprint you'll unlock next. My only complaint (although more personal preference than anything) is that I dislike tugging around massive capitals everywhere and wish there was an auxiliary ship that offered the same hullmod the Halbmond does, but I'm sure and understand you did it like this for balance reasons.

With that out of the way, I wanted to give my perspective on the Legio. At first I didn't pay too much attention to them and did my own thing in my own corner of the galaxy but at some point I couldn't help but notice that a big part of the sector was turning awfully red. Now that is no complaint in and of itself, I'm pretty new to how Nex works so this might have just been the luck of the draw and one faction snowballing early but either way, I felt forced to intervene in order to preserve some faction variety. A couple of killed fleets in, I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary but then during one battle I noticed a Manticore soloing multiple cruisers of mine. I thought the friendly AI was being silly again but when I rushed in to clean up, I had to learn that the Manticore indeed was able of effortlessly outgunning and outtanking ships thrice his size. I genuinely couldn't believe that it was supposed to be this strong and actually thought it was bugged or at least that I rolled a very unlucky loadout. No, I would soon learn that it was probably the weakest of the daemons.
Anyway, long story short I soon realized that the culprits were the AI ships and got the idea of taking the skill that let's you salvage them. I am not sure if this is intended but the player can indeed salvage them. Yeah, these ships DON'T belong in the player's hand. Like I mentioned at the start, I was aiming for a very vanilla experience with the added ships but these creatures are nowhere close to that. I got my hands on a couple of the frigates with the temporal shell ability and no vanilla content stands any chance against them. They are 6 (I believe?) DP and can solo the simulation paragon fairly easily. I deployed two against the Guardian and they can kill it without breaking a sweat, one would've done it too probably. I haven't tried it but I wouldn't be surprised if two can kill an Ordo, if I as the player was able to control them, I am sure I could solo more than an Ordo piloting a single of these frigates. What about the Tesseract fight? If you tell me 24 DP worth of these monster can do it I'll believe you. 12 DP? Maybe, either way I didn't use them because I didn't want to ruin the fight for me. It's nice to have a 6-24 DP "auto-resolve-button" when you run into 3 fully stacked pirate armadas (or literally any vanilla late game fleet for that matter), but I am not sure that is the intention behind them. 200k - 400k bounties have no hope of even putting a dent into them when I release multiple at once, altought I'm sure even one would be enough...
So why run them when they trivialize the game? Well, where do you get them from? You're not the only one using them afterall. Even fielding these extremely overpowered ships I am struggling against Legio fleets. The thing is, they also have daemons and you probably run a bunch of worthless ships that are hopelessly outgunned (so anything that isn't a daemon). Even piloting the vanilla equivalent of the "I-win-button", the Ziggurat, you'll be struggeling against anything bigger than a destroyer. And don't get me started on the capital ship... You need to overload that thing more than 3 times to kill it, oh and the bigger fleets usually run multiple of them. They are so tanky that you'll feel like you're playing one of these bullet sponge shooters where the bots take a whole sniper magazine to the dome before they notice that someone is shooting at them.

Not only does the combat get warped around Legio, but trading too. Their capital world is the cheapest place to to buy Marines, HA, supplies, the list goes on... Supplies might be cheaper on Chicomoztoc at times but Legio doesn't care about smuggling and you're there already so why not. By the time you made your round trip around their home system, their capital has already new dirt cheap HA for you to buy up once again. It's a damn money printer! I think I must have misunderstood their MO, all this time I thought they were the "bad" guys but no, they wear red because they act as the Santa Claus of the sector, practically giving away stuff. Come to Santa's workshop and get your heavy armaments, kids! But in all seriousness, there is little point NOT to make constant trips to their cap every chance you get. Even when products elsewhere become cheaper due to surplus, odds are they're even cheaper on their capital by default.

So what is the point of this post? My intention was not to write up some sort of rant, although skimming through what I just wrote sure makes it seem like one. I just wanted to give some feedback on why I think it should be made quite clear what you're getting yourself into by playing with this mod. Your OP reads that this mod is supposedly close to vanilla in terms of balance but has some overtuned rare stuff for the player to find. There is no way the Legio is meant by that "rare" stuff, right? They own half the bloody sector on top of Santa's damn workshop. They are everywhere!
There is nothing wrong with having a challenging faction, even an extremely overpowered one as a worthy foe for the player but I feel like that should be made clear. I just wanted a chill playthrough. Had I known that the entire combat, economy, the whole playthough would revolve around the Legio by the end, I'd have turned them off. Do I regret playing with this amazing mod? Not at all, it made my run but also left a sour aftertaste at the end when I learned that I had to either clean this red mess up or move on prematurely. I can't be bothered to blow up all these bullet sponges.
I recommend you have a very clear warning so players that play your mod for the first time know what they are getting themselves into.
Oh, and thanks again for this otherwise fantastic mod! I hope that talented people such as yourself never stop making these mods.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1027 on: May 03, 2022, 03:39:45 AM »

There have been a lot of adjustments to all the Legio content since the initial 0.8 release that added the Daemons, addressing most of the issues you stated, I believe.
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Coil

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1028 on: May 03, 2022, 10:27:02 PM »

I'm torn.  I very much like Kassadar, I like the Kassadar ships, I like most of the other ships, I like the Legio ships.  I even like the idea of the Legio and the attempt to make them a serious and interesting challenge.

But the Legio themselves are definitely becoming a "always turn these fuckheads off" thing.  They should not exist in this game.  They are poisonous to the game experience.  They impose themselves on the player, they force the player to play one particular way and focusing on one particular set of objectives, until Lucifron is satbombed.  The longer the player attempts to avoid addressing them, the worse of a problem they become and the more they disfigure the rest of the game experience.  They take away choices rather than adding them in and that alone makes them bad game design.

I would like to see a version of Legio that is an ordinary minor faction - well-entrenched, but no more of this "all invasions always succeed" crap - until such time as some trigger gets hit that turbocharges them into the present form.  The trigger could be toggleable on day 1 or 30 years later, depending on when or if the player desires.  That would be interesting and it would allow the player to scale the challenge to preference.  But the current implementation just forces itself in where it's not wanted and makes the whole game be about defeating them, disregarding anything else the player might want to be doing - and attempting to force a certain experience on the player regardless of player preferences particularly stands out given recent events. 

Anyway this is not a good player experience and I expect this effect is a major part of why people make comments like "always turn Legio off".

If I want to play as a super-pirate faction, right now the space commie faction in Vayra's are a much better way to do it, and if I want a threatening but beatable juggernaut to fight against the HamAgony does that well enough for a filthy casual like me.

Honestly, I like the Legio as they are. You usually get to a point where you can just capital steamroll everything the other factions have to offer. With the legio you need to change it up and try different tactics. I like the fact that the Legio forces you to change and because of this the playing experience is improved.

I totally get why you're turned off by them and they are totally valid reasons. I would think if the daemons are the issue, you could just try to modify the ini to disable them
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OmegaMan

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1029 on: May 08, 2022, 07:49:53 PM »

[BUG REPORT?]

I don't know if it's intended but the Project Silk  Large energy weapon can hit (chain to)  phase ships even while they are phased.   Nothing else can so it seems kinda odd.   

Also the AoE on the chain is damn large and it hits friendly ships and friendly missiles quite a lot.    But it's still fun to use.   

Ps.   Page 69....   nice.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 07:57:56 PM by OmegaMan »
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nukularpower

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1030 on: May 08, 2022, 08:07:46 PM »

I feel like I see a different Legio than everyone else.   I have played many games with Tahlan and in all of them I've just ignored legio.   They usually get killed by other in factions in my games, in fact.  I do not feel compelled to play any particular way because they exist because I've never seen them do anything (in hundreds of hours) besides get crushed, though in my current game they are doing alright since they allied with Arkgneisis or w/e

Just saying
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1031 on: May 08, 2022, 09:33:35 PM »

I feel like I see a different Legio than everyone else.   I have played many games with Tahlan and in all of them I've just ignored legio.   They usually get killed by other in factions in my games, in fact.  I do not feel compelled to play any particular way because they exist because I've never seen them do anything (in hundreds of hours) besides get crushed, though in my current game they are doing alright since they allied with Arkgneisis or w/e

Just saying

what other factions are you playing with? i've never seen legio getting pushed back in my runs. Typically they'll annihilate any markets nearby them, and because of how defended their home systems are the other factions rarely attempt, and never succeed, to oust them.
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Chairman Suryasari

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1032 on: May 09, 2022, 01:58:57 AM »

All the faction in my runs always want them dead, but of course they can do nothing about it because how ""defended"" Legio system is, it's just matter of time until they steamroll the entire sector, at best what they can do is put big bounty on them for privateer like us, and you will not break even on these contracts.

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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1033 on: May 09, 2022, 11:17:18 AM »

[BUG REPORT?]

I don't know if it's intended but the Project Silk  Large energy weapon can hit (chain to)  phase ships even while they are phased.   Nothing else can so it seems kinda odd.   

Also the AoE on the chain is damn large and it hits friendly ships and friendly missiles quite a lot.    But it's still fun to use.   

Ps.   Page 69....   nice.

Working as intended. The project weapons are whacky by design.
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Algoul

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1034 on: May 10, 2022, 11:11:45 AM »

Is there any possibility to get unique House ships like Metafalica or others if they exist?
After Metafalica disappeared from the sale of an independent port - unfortunately I don't know how to get it.
Probably they should appear in the bounty - but I did not notice anything like that.
Can the reason be the installed "Locked and Loaded" bounty mod?

P.S.: Also thank you for your mod, solid work, lot of pleasure
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