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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.666a  (Read 783309 times)

Screech9791

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #990 on: April 15, 2022, 06:36:24 AM »

Don't code while drunk, kids.
instructions unclear, accidentally kitbashed random crap into two onslaughts
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Cyan Leader

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #991 on: April 15, 2022, 08:33:28 AM »

Then you really need to take some time away from the Discord and it's culture. The Legio are also now basically an "always turn them off" deal, and in the worst case users will need to check your mods for any other stealth balance changes to other mods.

This is incredibly disappointing and it's an actual, no-nonsense Pandora's Box for modding. Mods, even parts of mods, attempting to alter the balance of each other with completely hidden, unannounced changes is the pathway to effective modding anarchy and ruins the experience for the end user for the sake of you trying to "own" other modders you dislike. While it's a bit silly to call it "unprofessional" (most mod-makers are doing this for fun, not for "professionalism"), it's still incredibly disrespectful to the people who download the mod in good faith.

I get that you want the Legio to be a legitimate "boss faction" and major challenge to the user. But even aside from some of the other issues with them (I'd been meaning to post for a while that I think, especially with the Legio hyperspace sieges no longer really working, they're too similar to just a normal faction and aren't really managing to accomplish their mission, and if anything it's too easy to get overpowered ships from them), this is a terrible way to go about it. Starsector works fairly hard to make sure that everything involved in combat is transparent to the user, and arbitrarily changing that, even for a particular classification of ships, just makes the experience worse for users who may not even be aware that other mods may be considered unbalanced by other modders.

And, more to the point, individual modders will do what they want to do. They will pursue their own goals with their work, and it is up to the user to decide if it's something they want as part of their game and how balanced and enjoyable it is. Trying to "police" the user's experience is an exercise in futility, because they will assemble the experience they want to have. It may be frustrating to see other mods making choices you strongly disagree with, but you simply have to accept that they exist.

This whole thing is also arbitrary. Why aren't the DME Brave Blade or Alauda targeted here? The former is "overpowered" on purpose, balanced currently by the fact that it's exclusive to one start and can't be recovered, and the latter isn't usable but can be consoled in to a fleet the same way a Tesseract can. Why not target anything with Modern Carriers hullmods, which are often considered overpowered? Why not WINGCOM from Arma Armatura, or other AA stuff generally, which does have some balance questions despite how fun it can be? How much of this is trying to address "balance", and how much of this is trying to dunk on specific modders simply because you dislike them as people because of your Discord interactions with them? What's the line, where's the criteria? There's just so many problems with doing things this way.

Well said.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #992 on: April 15, 2022, 10:38:03 AM »

Now, I'll accept that it maybe regarded as unprofessional or whatever, but making these things hidden was kind of the point. None of the Daemon-related things were announced or mentioned cause I wanted these to throw people off when they encountered them for the first time. Was it the right way of doing it? Apparently not, but at no point did any of my code actually directly interfere with the functionality of any other mod. I never have and never will directly interfere with the actual function of another mod, just like I've always been outspoken against artificial hard incompatibilities like crash code.

If you think that's disrespectful to the people downloading my mod, you are welcome to that opinion, but treating it as if I was hiding malware in it is stretching it a bit. I'm just one person making things mainly for myself cause it's fun. Sometimes I try things that I think will be fun or interesting, like challenging people. I didn't just target specific mods, but also some common vanilla tactics cause I felt it could be neat. I clearly misjudged the response I'd get here so I dropped those features now. It wasn't my intent to stir up pointless drama here and I'll try to avoid such things in the future.
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My mods: Tahlan Shipworks - ScalarTech Solutions - Trailer Moments
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Smartass

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #993 on: April 15, 2022, 12:11:11 PM »

And yet mere hours ago you were having a jolly laugh you trolled the players and had no intention of removing the hidden code, then said it was drunk coding just for meme and was gonna be removed, and now you go back to wanting to the original idea of wanting to "throw people off" and force them to play like you want them to. There's nothing wrong with making balanced changes to force a certain gameplay, but no one hides those in a faction/ship mod.

Never before have I chosen to pay attention to modding drama, but this made me lose any trust or confidence in your mods and work. It is clear you didn't expect to be caught and are trying everything for damage control.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #994 on: April 15, 2022, 01:52:13 PM »

You're welcome to believe what you want to believe. If you don't want to use my mods, then don't, I really couldn't care less. I found it funny at the time, I can see in retrospect why it upset people, take that as you will. Is it so hard for you to believe I might've changed my mind?

Either way, I won't argue this any further since people have already made up their minds, so it's honestly whatever.
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My mods: Tahlan Shipworks - ScalarTech Solutions - Trailer Moments
It's all in the presentation

Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #995 on: April 15, 2022, 07:00:48 PM »

What people actually have a problem with isn't the specific code you took out, but with your whole attitude to the people playing the game and your mod as expressed in that code. I'm going to step around that, because the likelihood of you changing or improving is small, and just deal with this from a game design perspective.

You can't regulate the experience of other players (modders are not 'elevated' or 'exceptional' players; we're just fellow players) that closely. It's bad design. There's a lot of stuff out there that meshes badly with other mods, that's not well made, that makes the game trivially easier, and I have opinions about all of it. Sometimes I wish it didn't exist, sure, but it does.

The reason I don't try to police it with hostile code is because this is my hobby and I want it to be fun, not a war of all against all where we compete to try to make playing and modding the game less fun for our fellow players.

I'm pretty sure you designed the Legio for pretty much the same reason I added the Blade Breakers; to challenge the player. To throw something at them that was a cut above smashing your average fleet, that was unique and interesting. The problem is that you can't force someone to want the same kind of challenge you want, or force other mods into the design paradigm you'd personally most like to balance against.

Some players are always going to want a straightforward power fantasy where they effortlessly smash the opposition, and that's okay. Put it out of your mind. Design around the default experience you're presenting being a good one that makes you personally happy to work on, and let the rest of it go. Don't try to balance the entire game; just deal with your corner of it.

And seriously, get a therapist. We'd all appreciate it.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 07:03:21 PM by Harmful Mechanic »
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #996 on: April 15, 2022, 07:08:32 PM »

If you feel the need to resort to ad hominem in the first paragraph, it really invalidates whatever valid point you might be trying to make. I really don't get your weird fixation with me, but I have no interest in engaging with it, sorry.
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My mods: Tahlan Shipworks - ScalarTech Solutions - Trailer Moments
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Kiddin Me

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #997 on: April 15, 2022, 07:40:15 PM »

Man, I have never felt more vindicated in habitually turning off Legio due to their poor interactions with Nexerlin.
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Alex

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #998 on: April 15, 2022, 08:46:18 PM »

And seriously, get a therapist. We'd all appreciate it.

That sort of thing is totally uncalled for. Please, let's stay away from personal attacks.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #999 on: April 15, 2022, 08:59:05 PM »

That sort of thing is totally uncalled for. Please, let's stay away from personal attacks.
Yeah, in retrospect that wrecked a post that could have been useful. My apologies to everyone.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 09:07:04 PM by Harmful Mechanic »
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Kiddin Me

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1000 on: April 15, 2022, 09:59:07 PM »

That sort of thing is totally uncalled for. Please, let's stay away from personal attacks.

I agree that the phrasing is inappropriate, but this is only a couple of steps removed from putting malware in a mod. Tampering with others' development efforts in a silent, undocumented component of your code would be taken extremely poorly in basically any open source community. Mean words aren't an appropriate response, but this behavior needs to be taken seriously.
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0202

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1001 on: April 16, 2022, 05:51:54 AM »

I'm sorry to bother you. Please forgive me for being annoying .May I ask your permission to translate your 'Tahlan Shipworks ' into chineses ? then upload to a Chinese forum,sure,it's free for everyone
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1002 on: April 16, 2022, 06:12:56 AM »

I'm sorry to bother you. Please forgive me for being annoying .May I ask your permission to translate your 'Tahlan Shipworks ' into chineses ? then upload to a Chinese forum,sure,it's free for everyone

Yeah, sure. Strings should all be externalised. No need to translate any of the Legio siege classes, they are deprecated and will be removed soon.
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My mods: Tahlan Shipworks - ScalarTech Solutions - Trailer Moments
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Alex

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1003 on: April 16, 2022, 08:44:56 AM »

Cleaned up the thread a bit; opening it back up. At this point - since I believe Nia removed the code in question, and pretty much anything that might have needed to be said has been said - further discussion of this in the topic seems counter-productive and will be removed.

@Screech9791: you've got an official warning (for the removed post); please familiarize yourself with the forum rules.
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Great Wound

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #1004 on: April 16, 2022, 11:34:31 AM »

Cleaned up the thread a bit; opening it back up. At this point - since I believe Nia removed the code in question, and pretty much anything that might have needed to be said has been said - further discussion of this in the topic seems counter-productive and will be removed.

With all due respect Alex, where would be a good place for discussing this, it seems that this thread would be the best place given it was this mod the code was snuck in to? Perhaps it would best if you put out a blanket statement somewhere visible to address the issue as I fear any attempts to silence the discussion may be seen as an attempt to cover for Nia.
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