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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.666a  (Read 783304 times)

Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #975 on: April 14, 2022, 04:49:30 PM »

Yeah... that's not really cool.

It's one thing to have an opinion about the way other mods work, it's entirely another to add hidden tweaks to those mods that, incidentally, make it harder for their creators to balance them, if that happens to be your issue with them.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #976 on: April 14, 2022, 04:56:20 PM »

It's exclusive to Daemons and only pointed at mods that specifically have made it clear they do not care to to balance anything, just to troll people a bit when they try to cheese the challenge using those. It mostly exists for the fun of it and I don't really intend to remove it, at least not all of it.
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SpaceDrake

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #977 on: April 14, 2022, 06:44:56 PM »

Then you really need to take some time away from the Discord and it's culture. The Legio are also now basically an "always turn them off" deal, and in the worst case users will need to check your mods for any other stealth balance changes to other mods.

This is incredibly disappointing and it's an actual, no-nonsense Pandora's Box for modding. Mods, even parts of mods, attempting to alter the balance of each other with completely hidden, unannounced changes is the pathway to effective modding anarchy and ruins the experience for the end user for the sake of you trying to "own" other modders you dislike. While it's a bit silly to call it "unprofessional" (most mod-makers are doing this for fun, not for "professionalism"), it's still incredibly disrespectful to the people who download the mod in good faith.

I get that you want the Legio to be a legitimate "boss faction" and major challenge to the user. But even aside from some of the other issues with them (I'd been meaning to post for a while that I think, especially with the Legio hyperspace sieges no longer really working, they're too similar to just a normal faction and aren't really managing to accomplish their mission, and if anything it's too easy to get overpowered ships from them), this is a terrible way to go about it. Starsector works fairly hard to make sure that everything involved in combat is transparent to the user, and arbitrarily changing that, even for a particular classification of ships, just makes the experience worse for users who may not even be aware that other mods may be considered unbalanced by other modders.

And, more to the point, individual modders will do what they want to do. They will pursue their own goals with their work, and it is up to the user to decide if it's something they want as part of their game and how balanced and enjoyable it is. Trying to "police" the user's experience is an exercise in futility, because they will assemble the experience they want to have. It may be frustrating to see other mods making choices you strongly disagree with, but you simply have to accept that they exist.

This whole thing is also arbitrary. Why aren't the DME Brave Blade or Alauda targeted here? The former is "overpowered" on purpose, balanced currently by the fact that it's exclusive to one start and can't be recovered, and the latter isn't usable but can be consoled in to a fleet the same way a Tesseract can. Why not target anything with Modern Carriers hullmods, which are often considered overpowered? Why not WINGCOM from Arma Armatura, or other AA stuff generally, which does have some balance questions despite how fun it can be? How much of this is trying to address "balance", and how much of this is trying to dunk on specific modders simply because you dislike them as people because of your Discord interactions with them? What's the line, where's the criteria? There's just so many problems with doing things this way.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 06:50:59 PM by SpaceDrake »
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Visha

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #978 on: April 14, 2022, 10:00:23 PM »

Then you really need to take some time away from the Discord and it's culture. The Legio are also now basically an "always turn them off" deal, and in the worst case users will need to check your mods for any other stealth balance changes to other mods.

This is incredibly disappointing and it's an actual, no-nonsense Pandora's Box for modding. Mods, even parts of mods, attempting to alter the balance of each other with completely hidden, unannounced changes is the pathway to effective modding anarchy and ruins the experience for the end user for the sake of you trying to "own" other modders you dislike. While it's a bit silly to call it "unprofessional" (most mod-makers are doing this for fun, not for "professionalism"), it's still incredibly disrespectful to the people who download the mod in good faith.

I get that you want the Legio to be a legitimate "boss faction" and major challenge to the user. But even aside from some of the other issues with them (I'd been meaning to post for a while that I think, especially with the Legio hyperspace sieges no longer really working, they're too similar to just a normal faction and aren't really managing to accomplish their mission, and if anything it's too easy to get overpowered ships from them), this is a terrible way to go about it. Starsector works fairly hard to make sure that everything involved in combat is transparent to the user, and arbitrarily changing that, even for a particular classification of ships, just makes the experience worse for users who may not even be aware that other mods may be considered unbalanced by other modders.

And, more to the point, individual modders will do what they want to do. They will pursue their own goals with their work, and it is up to the user to decide if it's something they want as part of their game and how balanced and enjoyable it is. Trying to "police" the user's experience is an exercise in futility, because they will assemble the experience they want to have. It may be frustrating to see other mods making choices you strongly disagree with, but you simply have to accept that they exist.

This whole thing is also arbitrary. Why aren't the DME Brave Blade or Alauda targeted here? The former is "overpowered" on purpose, balanced currently by the fact that it's exclusive to one start and can't be recovered, and the latter isn't usable but can be consoled in to a fleet the same way a Tesseract can. Why not target anything with Modern Carriers hullmods, which are often considered overpowered? Why not WINGCOM from Arma Armatura, or other AA stuff generally, which does have some balance questions despite how fun it can be? How much of this is trying to address "balance", and how much of this is trying to dunk on specific modders simply because you dislike them as people because of your Discord interactions with them? What's the line, where's the criteria? There's just so many problems with doing things this way.

Not only do I agree with the above, I find your attitude regarding players appalling. You treat them as if they are idiots not playing the way YOU  want and have decided to take it apon yourself to police them. Except your mods are recomended by others, without all the "scrub" police information passed on, or even, they are modding their game for the first time, get far into a run, and something you've unleashed ruins said run. You are literally being a *** to people you don't know and might not even be on the discord or interact with you at all. Code based minefields aren't a balance pass, its duschbaggery by absentee
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Hotpics

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #979 on: April 14, 2022, 10:18:33 PM »

Why bother arguing? Just don't use his mods anymore.
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SpaceDrake

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #980 on: April 15, 2022, 12:08:02 AM »

Because by and large I really respect and enjoy Nia's work, which makes this all the more frustrating. ScalarTech and Shipworks have been staple mods for me practically since I began modding my playthroughs (ScalarTech was the first faction mod I installed alongside Kadur) and I'd like to keep using them without worrying about arbitrary changes to the game hidden within them.
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Pep

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #981 on: April 15, 2022, 12:43:33 AM »

Then you really need to take some time away from the Discord and it's culture. The Legio are also now basically an "always turn them off" deal, and in the worst case users will need to check your mods for any other stealth balance changes to other mods.

This is incredibly disappointing and it's an actual, no-nonsense Pandora's Box for modding. Mods, even parts of mods, attempting to alter the balance of each other with completely hidden, unannounced changes is the pathway to effective modding anarchy and ruins the experience for the end user for the sake of you trying to "own" other modders you dislike. While it's a bit silly to call it "unprofessional" (most mod-makers are doing this for fun, not for "professionalism"), it's still incredibly disrespectful to the people who download the mod in good faith.

I get that you want the Legio to be a legitimate "boss faction" and major challenge to the user. But even aside from some of the other issues with them (I'd been meaning to post for a while that I think, especially with the Legio hyperspace sieges no longer really working, they're too similar to just a normal faction and aren't really managing to accomplish their mission, and if anything it's too easy to get overpowered ships from them), this is a terrible way to go about it. Starsector works fairly hard to make sure that everything involved in combat is transparent to the user, and arbitrarily changing that, even for a particular classification of ships, just makes the experience worse for users who may not even be aware that other mods may be considered unbalanced by other modders.

And, more to the point, individual modders will do what they want to do. They will pursue their own goals with their work, and it is up to the user to decide if it's something they want as part of their game and how balanced and enjoyable it is. Trying to "police" the user's experience is an exercise in futility, because they will assemble the experience they want to have. It may be frustrating to see other mods making choices you strongly disagree with, but you simply have to accept that they exist.

This whole thing is also arbitrary. Why aren't the DME Brave Blade or Alauda targeted here? The former is "overpowered" on purpose, balanced currently by the fact that it's exclusive to one start and can't be recovered, and the latter isn't usable but can be consoled in to a fleet the same way a Tesseract can. Why not target anything with Modern Carriers hullmods, which are often considered overpowered? Why not WINGCOM from Arma Armatura, or other AA stuff generally, which does have some balance questions despite how fun it can be? How much of this is trying to address "balance", and how much of this is trying to dunk on specific modders simply because you dislike them as people because of your Discord interactions with them? What's the line, where's the criteria? There's just so many problems with doing things this way.
Not that I disagree with you but the mods you listed aren’t even in the same realm of op with the things in that script except maybe avatar core. They for sure should have listed it so people know what they’re getting into but if they want to maintain some level of actual challenge with things that invalidate the challenge I don’t see the problem
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 12:45:47 AM by Pep »
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #982 on: April 15, 2022, 01:03:28 AM »

That part of the script will be removed in the next update anyhow. The whole point was to throw people off, that's why it's hidden in the first place, and was never intended as a permanent feature. I didn't expect people get quite so upset over it, but I guess it is how it is. That is also why it's fairly arbitrary. I know well enough that I can't possibly maintain a proper balance approach.

In the end it started as a joke while drunk and ultimately gave me some laughs.
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Lowest Hegemon

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #983 on: April 15, 2022, 04:06:59 AM »

Don't let the h8ters get you down! Keep those balance changes coming. Hoping for those -100% damage on stinger shipyard ships next patch
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.3a
« Reply #984 on: April 15, 2022, 04:30:36 AM »

Don't let the h8ters get you down! Keep those balance changes coming. Hoping for those -100% damage on stinger shipyard ships next patch

Nah, would be a futile endeavour to try and balance other people's mods, even if I wanted to. There'll always be broken things and that's honestly fine. I just wanted to mess with some of the more notorious ones for a bit. It very much is a bad thing to do, really, but I found it funny at the time.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #985 on: April 15, 2022, 05:24:11 AM »

Alright, went ahead and rushed this along so people can have their peace of mind.

Changelog:
Spoiler
- Various Daemon tweaks
- Hel Centurion system changed to fortress shield
- Hel Dominator system changed to canister flaks
- Small stat tweaks here and there
- Removed meme features from Daemon Core
- Added a 10% timeflow reduction in player fleet to Daemon Core
- Nelson (XIV) Hammer tubes changed to Sabot tubes
    - This is mainly a lore-based change since built-in hammers don't really make sense on a XIV ship
[close]
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Screech9791

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #986 on: April 15, 2022, 05:52:17 AM »

by the way, what the *** is with Mayasuran ships being nerfed by the fun police shitcode? did noah get attacked by a shark as a kid, and later decided that anything to do with sharks of any kind had to be nerfed?
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SirHartley

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #987 on: April 15, 2022, 05:57:44 AM »

by the way, what the *** is with Mayasuran ships being nerfed by the fun police shitcode? did noah get attacked by a shark as a kid, and later decided that anything to do with sharks of any kind had to be nerfed?
Reading isn't your strong suit, is it?
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Screech9791

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #988 on: April 15, 2022, 06:06:16 AM »

by the way, what the *** is with Mayasuran ships being nerfed by the fun police shitcode? did noah get attacked by a shark as a kid, and later decided that anything to do with sharks of any kind had to be nerfed?
Reading isn't your strong suit, is it?
holy *** all I did was ask what he had against mayasura that made him add that faction’s hulls to the nerf list (alongside doritos)
calm down
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.4
« Reply #989 on: April 15, 2022, 06:27:58 AM »

Just a poke at chase for the fun of it. The listener was actually only supposed to be attached if the ship are in a Legio fleet, but I forgot to put it in the check for that. Don't code while drunk, kids.
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