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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: [0.96a] Tahlan Shipworks  (Read 1076606 times)

Oni

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1110 on: September 02, 2022, 11:17:13 AM »

A question about Metafalica, where can I find it now? Last time I checked SC about a year ago I managed to either find it as a derelict or bought on high-end market of Prism. Can quite remember actually. But someone around here mentioned it as a unique start ship... and I fail to find it in start options.
Any help?
Join the 'Great Houses' start of Nexerelin, I believe it should be one of the Super Ship starts.

It's a bit of an odd start though, technically the Great Houses are simply part of the Independents, but the Independent reputation at the start of that faction is low so you can't even access their military market.
It's a bit weird.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2022, 11:20:07 AM by Oni »
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Brainwright

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1111 on: September 02, 2022, 11:19:01 AM »

A question about Metafalica, where can I find it now? Last time I checked SC about a year ago I managed to either find it as a derelict or bought on high-end market of Prism. Can quite remember actually. But someone around here mentioned it as a unique start ship... and I fail to find it in start options.
Any help?

Pretty easy to just drop it in when you start a new game with the Console Commands mod.

Then you just go
 > list ships
 > addship <shipyouwant>
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1112 on: September 03, 2022, 01:08:55 AM »

A question about Metafalica, where can I find it now? Last time I checked SC about a year ago I managed to either find it as a derelict or bought on high-end market of Prism. Can quite remember actually. But someone around here mentioned it as a unique start ship... and I fail to find it in start options.
Any help?

Pretty easy to just drop it in when you start a new game with the Console Commands mod.

Then you just go
 > list ships
 > addship <shipyouwant>

you can also further narrow down '>List Ships' with '>List Ships <part of id)' like >List Ships Tahlan
This works with all list commands btw
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Cheru

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1113 on: September 03, 2022, 08:47:50 AM »

Thank you all for the help! Yeah, I guess I will use the mod then. It is not what I would prefer, but that ship gave me some serious Space Battleship Yamato vibes and miss it too much))
Strange is the fact that I remember finding it midgame. Well, it was over a year ago - I guess things might have changed a bit.
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ciph

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1114 on: September 03, 2022, 10:55:01 AM »

Thanks for the great mod. I love both Tahlan and Scarlar. There are two things I wanna feedback

1. Hel Centurion's system is entropy amplifier instead of Hel Temporal Shell which state in change log

2. Hel ships are way too tanky.

One Hel Dominator can withstand several capital ships attacks for 10-15 minutes with almost no damage, I also read two other people talking about similar scenarios. Someone say you don't have enough burst damage, but I use many tri-taychon lancers and UAF taufan fighters to nuke them...

The level of tankiness is close to IBB I'll Kill You All ships.

It was not that ultra tanky in 0.8.4


Just noticed 1 is fixed, maybe I was using 0.8.5 beta2
« Last Edit: September 03, 2022, 12:14:58 PM by ciph »
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1115 on: September 03, 2022, 01:24:24 PM »

Thanks for the great mod. I love both Tahlan and Scarlar. There are two things I wanna feedback

1. Hel Centurion's system is entropy amplifier instead of Hel Temporal Shell which state in change log

2. Hel ships are way too tanky.

One Hel Dominator can withstand several capital ships attacks for 10-15 minutes with almost no damage, I also read two other people talking about similar scenarios. Someone say you don't have enough burst damage, but I use many tri-taychon lancers and UAF taufan fighters to nuke them...

The level of tankiness is close to IBB I'll Kill You All ships.

It was not that ultra tanky in 0.8.4


Just noticed 1 is fixed, maybe I was using 0.8.5 beta2

Sounds like you didn't update to 0.8.5 properly. I just checked the download to be sure and the Hel Centurion is correctly set to Hel Temporal Shell. Daemons are the most fragile they've ever been in this update, too, so I don't know what to tell you there.
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Brainwright

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1116 on: September 03, 2022, 07:56:02 PM »

Sounds like you didn't update to 0.8.5 properly. I just checked the download to be sure and the Hel Centurion is correctly set to Hel Temporal Shell. Daemons are the most fragile they've ever been in this update, too, so I don't know what to tell you there.

It's not the ships themselves, that much I know for sure.  It's some kind of secret sauce when the opponent uses an AI core.

I've made super-liuetenants before, and they are far from that oppressively strong.
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Shadowkiller

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1117 on: September 05, 2022, 10:58:49 AM »

I have to admit im having the same issues with the Hel ships, im spending minutes after the normal Legio ships have been destroyed just shooting at these roided up remnent to the point that i just command nuke them because my CR starts to run out (especially the dominators). They are by far the hardest ships to fight out of anything iv experienced in my heavily modded games, to the point of standing up to Supercapitals i built to fight Legio, i have to consistently put 2-3 times the deployment to safely take them on and they still end up sniping my ships while surrounded and bombarded. Personally for me it goes beyond a challenge to just unrealistic annoyance that makes me want to avoid Legio content. Which is a shame because im very fond of the mod as a whole!

I have disabled the drone *** for the moment, (thanks for making that an option!) But since my opinion seems to be shared by people on the forum and discord wanted to bring it up in case you feel like adjusting it again. Beyond personally fighting it the drone fleets also seem to body other AI fleets making the raids/sat bombing quite a problem for places that should be defeating invasion fleets.

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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1118 on: September 06, 2022, 02:35:55 AM »

I have to admit im having the same issues with the Hel ships, im spending minutes after the normal Legio ships have been destroyed just shooting at these roided up remnent to the point that i just command nuke them because my CR starts to run out (especially the dominators). They are by far the hardest ships to fight out of anything iv experienced in my heavily modded games, to the point of standing up to Supercapitals i built to fight Legio, i have to consistently put 2-3 times the deployment to safely take them on and they still end up sniping my ships while surrounded and bombarded. Personally for me it goes beyond a challenge to just unrealistic annoyance that makes me want to avoid Legio content. Which is a shame because im very fond of the mod as a whole!

Even normal AI remnant or domain ships can sometimes be incredibly tanky just because of their skills, combined with regenerating armor and you've got a recipe for an unfun slog.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1119 on: September 06, 2022, 03:16:02 AM »

I really don't know what to say since I really don't encounter those issues in any of my own playtesting. While Daemon armor regenerates, it is also very weak for ships of the respective sizes, so they are not all that hard to burn down unless you're relying solely on long range sustained fire like HVD-Mauler combos that have very low dps.

I can only guess that some other mod interaction might be buffing the ships in unexpected ways that make them much tankier than intended. In my experience the shift to low durability but regenerative armor has made Daemons less tanky overall and easier to punish, which was the whole intent behind that change. If you could provide me your mod lists or examples of the ships and fleets you used, I might have a better idea of the issue.
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1120 on: September 06, 2022, 11:02:52 PM »

I really don't know what to say since I really don't encounter those issues in any of my own playtesting. While Daemon armor regenerates, it is also very weak for ships of the respective sizes, so they are not all that hard to burn down unless you're relying solely on long range sustained fire like HVD-Mauler combos that have very low dps.

well, i dont think i have any mods that would be really changing anything relevant here, but a sloth variant hel-dominator with a core thats got helmsmanship, combat endurace, impact mitigation, damage control, field modulation, target analysis, and gunnery implants is taking my quadruple phase lance paragon with it for minutes before i finally pop the bastard... i'm not looking forward to the hel-scarith in this invasion fleet...

Edit: Nvm, it didnt face its shields towards me and i got to turn its port side into tachyon soup peppered with antimatter SRM's... Spose the hel-scarith still faces the same out-flanking problem of the normal one
« Last Edit: September 06, 2022, 11:08:21 PM by Killsode »
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1121 on: September 07, 2022, 12:15:56 AM »

I mean... quad tachyon lance (I'm assuming phase lance is a typo) isn't that great of a build given it's utterly impotent against shields if it can't overhelm them in one burst cause all it does is rack up soft flux. You can literally facetank a penta tachy Radiant with most cruisers easily by just venting in between tachy bursts, too.
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1122 on: September 07, 2022, 09:33:49 AM »

I mean... quad tachyon lance (I'm assuming phase lance is a typo) isn't that great of a build given it's utterly impotent against shields if it can't overhelm them in one burst cause all it does is rack up soft flux. You can literally facetank a penta tachy Radiant with most cruisers easily by just venting in between tachy bursts, too.

sorry yeah, tachyon lances. But my Paragon loadout was 4x Tachyon lances, 2 Hvel drivers, 2 remnant graviton beams from HMI, 4 antimatter srm's, and a spattering of gluon PD from Apex. 1380~ energy dps from the lances, 276 kinetic from the hvel's, and 200 kinetic from the gravitons. And while the player can vent between tachyon bursts, the AI just doesnt, and they couldnt with my loadout as the hardpoints were on a different firing cycle than the turrets. +10% from managing to get to 100% combat readiness too.

but much of that isnt really the point, the Daemons are AI-piloted ships, so quite frequently they have the magic trio of tanking skills elited: Impact migitation, Damage control, and Field modulation. And while the daemons might have slightly lower armor than remnant ships, For instance the hel dominator has 800 armor while the brilliant has 900, they frequently field heavy armor: IE the sloth-dominator ending up having 1200. And thanks to hel carapace their armor rating is counted at 50% higher for reduction along side 10% regeneration. this comes together as just kind of a slog to fight against without being much of a threat.

The fact that these highly tanky ships are interspersed within pirate ships also makes their longer TTK all the more noticeable.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 10:48:42 AM by Killsode »
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Khaos

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1123 on: September 07, 2022, 10:11:19 AM »

Feedback time;

My favourite is the Defiance-class, both looks-wise and what it can be built into. I have to ask, have you intended it to be a PCL ship, or it is just an unintended -albeit awesome- outcome? :)
My only pain is that it costs 24 deployment points, when its usefulness and stats are both putting it exactly at the Eradicator's level, at 20 points...

I love this mod pack the best out of ship packs, especially the balance kept around vanilla, and that you have ships for every factions. GG! Will always use it!
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.95.1a] Tahlan Shipworks 0.8.5
« Reply #1124 on: September 07, 2022, 11:02:22 AM »

I mean... quad tachyon lance (I'm assuming phase lance is a typo) isn't that great of a build given it's utterly impotent against shields if it can't overhelm them in one burst cause all it does is rack up soft flux. You can literally facetank a penta tachy Radiant with most cruisers easily by just venting in between tachy bursts, too.

sorry yeah, tachyon lances. But my Paragon loadout was 4x Tachyon lances, 2 Hvel drivers, 2 remnant graviton beams from HMI, 4 antimatter srm's, and a spattering of gluon PD from Apex. 1380~ energy dps from the lances, 276 kinetic from the hvel's, and 200 kinetic from the gravitons. And while the player can vent between tachyon bursts, the AI just doesnt, and they couldnt with my loadout as the hardpoints were on a different firing cycle than the turrets. +10% from managing to get to 100% combat readiness too.

but much of that isnt really the point, the Daemons are AI-piloted ships, so quite frequently they have the magic trio of tanking skills elited: Impact migitation, Damage control, and Field modulation. And while the daemons might have slightly lower armor than remnant ships, For instance the hel dominator has 800 armor while the brilliant has 900, they frequently field heavy armor: IE the sloth-dominator ending up having 1200. And thanks to hel carapace their armor rating is counted at 50% higher for reduction along side 10% regeneration. this comes together as just kind of a slog to fight against without being much of a threat.

The fact that these highly tanky ships are interspersed within pirate ships also makes their longer TTK all the more noticeable.

I'll be adding a short delay to regeneration upon taking armor damage in the next version and the Dominator specifically will lose 100 points of armor. That, however, is the most I'm willing to nerf the Daemon defenses at this point as they are intended to require good ship builds, fleet compositions and some player skill to fight effectively. And yes, they have somewhat comparable armor to Remnant, but they also have generally worse shields with worse coverage.

And whether you like it or not, quad tachy Paragon is a meme build and a waste of a Paragon.


Feedback time;

My favourite is the Defiance-class, both looks-wise and what it can be built into. I have to ask, have you intended it to be a PCL ship, or it is just an unintended -albeit awesome- outcome? :)
My only pain is that it costs 24 deployment points, when its usefulness and stats are both putting it exactly at the Eradicator's level, at 20 points...

I love this mod pack the best out of ship packs, especially the balance kept around vanilla, and that you have ships for every factions. GG! Will always use it!

Frankly, the Eradicator is undercosted DP-wise. The Defiance is slated for a makeover in the near future, though, so I'll take a closer look then anyhow. No idea what you mean with PCL.
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