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Author Topic: 6th Fleet Building Tournament  (Read 16989 times)

SCC

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2019, 01:29:33 AM »

Why not make the fleet slots a random draw so everyone who wants to join has a chance, not just the same few lucky individuals?

Set a deadline and give everyone 3 or 4 choices for slots that they can submit before that date, putting them into a random draw pool for that slot. After the deadline, just go through the slots and randomly pick someone from that slot's pool.
Yeah, picking process wasn't very fair. I wonder why doesn't Tartiflette just announce in advance when he's opening registration.
Part of the problem with carriers is that they tend to be slow and weak. They might not even suicide any more than other ships, they're just less suited to surviving the mistake and more likely to be noticed by players due to the circumstance (players assume they should always be in the backline) and confirmation bias.
I'm very sure, after watching the streams, that most of the carriers and only a few exceptions in other ships exhibit suicidal tendencies. It's called "Carrier AI" because it's carriers doing this stupid *** most of the time. However, I'm hoping that this is mostly due to bugs and that 0.9.1 patch will fix this mess.

Tartiflette

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2019, 03:28:18 AM »

Why not make the fleet slots a random draw so everyone who wants to join has a chance, not just the same few lucky individuals?
First, generally between a third and half of the slots are "wildcard" slots that anyone can fill with any faction, so you already get a chance to get your favorite one even when not putting your name in first. The fixed slots are there to ensure a varied roster of factions and prevent everyone picking Blackrock or Diable (or surprisingly vanilla this time around). And a pre-announced opening wouldn't help with that either as the same people available when I open the inscriptions would get first anyway. Also, most regular participants never used the same faction more that once, or a few twice, so it's not like the same people are hoarding the good stuff.

Secondly, I can already foresee a lot of drop out mid-tournament (or even earlier) when participants don't get the faction they wanted. Tournaments last for a while and are not an insignificant amout of work from their part. I think it's better to ensure people are comited to the faction they chose. As far as I can see it, random draws would only work for something very short.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but there are concerns that I would consider first. But besides that, everything required to make a tournament is public and open source, anyone can organize their own and you are more than welcome to try that variant. I'm sure you will find people to participate.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 03:44:26 AM by Tartiflette »
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Hrothgar

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2019, 05:11:52 AM »

I think time is a worst enemy here: i found about tournament like 2 days before it start (and i think 2 after first it was announced) and every place was taken already. I work normally 95% of week and i dont have time to check every day about it.
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Tartiflette

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2019, 06:18:24 AM »

The number of participants is the biggest problem for me. In PvE it takes an innordinate amount of time to setup the waves, but in PvP it takes an innordinate amount of rounds to get a winner. The places are limited and there aren't that many ways to increase that number of besides Tag-Teams that are already doing.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2019, 06:40:29 AM »

The number of participants is the biggest problem for me. In PvE it takes an innordinate amount of time to setup the waves, but in PvP it takes an innordinate amount of rounds to get a winner. The places are limited and there aren't that many ways to increase that number of besides Tag-Teams that are already doing.
What would be really interesting to see is 2 allied fleets that both have one player controlling one ship and ordering their part of the fleet around. Would cut down a lot on "ahhh the AI just doesn't know what to do with that special snowflake loadout/composition". Though I doubt that can be arranged.
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Chaos Farseer

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2019, 09:03:33 AM »

What would be really interesting to see is 2 allied fleets that both have one player controlling one ship and ordering their part of the fleet around. Would cut down a lot on "ahhh the AI just doesn't know what to do with that special snowflake loadout/composition". Though I doubt that can be arranged.
That’s currently logistically impossible. While there is that mod which allows a second player to pilot a ship, the second player would have to be at the same computer as the first player, and they have to share a screen. And players are probably not located near each other.
Then you’d need each pair to record/stream their playthrough, and not everybody is prepared for that.

There could be an argument for a PvE tournament where the player takes personal control, but then you’d need everyone to record their own playthrough and you’d need some way to prevent cheating.

 
Why not make the fleet slots a random draw so everyone who wants to join has a chance, not just the same few lucky individuals?
I originally misinterpreted this as a lottery system, where 40 people could sign up for 32 slots, and the participants are chosen at random. (And then the participants get to choose which fleets they use, I suppose.) This might be more fair for getting into the tournament, instead of first-come-first-served? Maybe.
(It could motivate players to make many fake accounts to maximize their chance of getting in, but that could be fixed. )

The original slots idea, where many players can submit for a faction but one is chosen to display, seems like it would be unfair in terms of time commitment. There’s less motivation to create a fleet submission if there’s a 50% chance or less that your submission is chosen, and if your fleet isn’t chosen all that time would have be wasted. Consistent participants make more sense, in my opinion.
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Blothorn

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2019, 01:57:29 PM »

Part of the problem with carriers is that they tend to be slow and weak. They might not even suicide any more than other ships, they're just less suited to surviving the mistake and more likely to be noticed by players due to the circumstance (players assume they should always be in the backline) and confirmation bias.

This is certainly not the only factor in play. My tournament entry has a bunch of SRA Sargassos, with 90 base speed. Three of them have tac lasers + ITU, for 1200 range; the other has Safety Overrides and 170 speed. All have 'cautious' AI personality.

Ideally, I don't think any of them should be getting in much trouble. The slow ones are still faster than almost all cruisers and most destroyers, and even if they do decide to attack they are as effective at 1200 su as at point-blank. Every round I lose at least one of them because it closes to within 100-200 su of a near-stationary cruiser or capital. The SO variant does need to close range if the AI does decide to directly engage, but with 170 speed it should have no trouble disengaging; frequently, it sits right in front of a vastly superior enemy until it overloads. If the AI were properly keeping them behind the front lines and they were being destroyed when they got chased down by a faster, stronger enemy I would have no complaint--but when they are the one charging a superior enemy, I think that is an AI bug by any standard.

Another part of the problem is that there is a lack of player control in the AI Tournament, which isn't an expected scenario in the base game, and the turn resets mess up the approach order of the ships, which in the base game it is assumed that the slow carriers will reach the battle slower and therefor tend to be in the backlines.

This can happen in the base game too, if you or the AI lose/retreat combat ships leaving carriers in front of reinforcing combat ships. Nevermind that *the carriers are pushing through ships in front of them to engage near-stationary targets at point-blank range*. Original fleet order has little to do with it.
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Tartiflette

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2019, 12:30:56 AM »

Btw I wanted to add that this time around nearly half the participants are first time players (15 out of 32), and more than half of the veterans have just one tournament under their belt. So it's not like all the slots are hoarded by the same fleet building junkies. For me that's the best ratio in a tag-team setting since I can pair up a veteran with every newcomer to show them the intricacies of using the tournament mission and submitting a fleet for the first round.
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Tartiflette

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2019, 12:37:48 PM »

The last round of the Tournament will start very soon on Nemo's channel  https://www.twitch.tv/nemo_naemo at 9pm UTC for the prime league.
The underdog finals will follow tomorrow on MaverickRaven's channel https://www.twitch.tv/maverickraven_ around 11pm UTC

Appologies for the late warning, I've been putting out fires in preparation of this last round all day.
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SCC

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2019, 02:29:04 PM »

Links to all the streams.
Spoiler
Prime League:
Underdog League:
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Tartiflette

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2019, 03:06:31 PM »

All the results are now in the OP, thanks to all participants, it was a blast!
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Nikopol

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2019, 11:47:24 PM »

Thanks Tart for your hard work. I really enjoyed this tournament.
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Hrothgar

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2019, 01:51:16 AM »

Nice that underdog is on youtube. I have problem to get enough time to watch twitch so i download it from youtube to watch.

I hope i will get on 7th tournament - i have a fleet idea which noeone used in 6th.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 09:44:20 AM by Hrothgar »
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SCC

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2019, 01:52:27 AM »

Underdog League first round broke, but Chimni reuploaded it at some point and people kinda forgot about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rsT6h6niE

Hrothgar

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Re: 6th Fleet Building Tournament
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2019, 02:18:37 AM »

We wait for 7th tournament.
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