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Author Topic: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.2.0 - 03/03/19  (Read 167250 times)

grimcreaper

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2019, 08:09:19 AM »

To the OP: Thank you for this cool mod. I intend to grab and start using it once im home from work tonight. Keep up the good work!

To the mod authors who are getting bent out of shape: Stop being an Arthmoor. Seriously. This is a single player game and this mod is actually pretty neat. Attacking a new modder is ridiculous and comes off as being callous.
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2019, 08:31:37 AM »

My oh my, blacklisting and honest-to-god intentional game crashing like it's MC Forge? What's next? Severed horse heads a-la Godfather?
Man, as much as i hate and loathe that word with every fiber of my being, stuff's getting pretty toxic.
Thankfully in the "modern" sense of the word as in "peepl r hurting me fee-fees", not actual toxicity, don't want to think what would happen if someone could cause spontaneous cell death and necrosis with a forum post.
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On the left half of the Bell curve

Straticus

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2019, 09:29:04 AM »

As someone who builds (and maintains) software for a living, it's bloody annoying when someone else's cross-cutting concerns cause havoc with what you've built, and you have to deal with the fallout because some error message or UX indicates it's your thing that's caused it. So I have some empathy for other mod-makers, particularly those who have spent years on their stuff rather than the ~1.5 weeks I spent building this.

There's also the argument that collaboration, rather than unilateralism, will make things better for the community as a whole. I would rather reduce the number of the blueprints available by Vesperon but make it richer and more rewarding in other ways. It isn't intended as a cheat mod, although it may come across that way as I balanced it against a relatively mid-range fleet of my own when building it to prove the concept I had in mind.

Starsector's modding structure is super-easy and innately low-conflict by comparison but I don't think that is good reason to turn about and paint wide-ranging compatibility as an "obligation" for other mod authors.

I don't take this as pushing an obligation, but encouragement towards making mods that work well with others. I hadn't realised it was possible to make mods mututally exclusive with others. If I took a unilateral position to carry on then it would be totally appropriate for others who disagree to make theirs incompatible with mine, and I can guess which ones the community would rather play with.

Quote from: Katsumi
And, newsflash, this mod is less egregious in that regard than something like Console Commands.

The key difference is that impact of using Console Commands - something that's designed to modify the game state at the player's whim - is rather more immediate and obvious than something that's integrated into the gameplay.

Perhaps a good example of this 'breaking' other content is Tiandong's conversions system - which is IIRC based on conversions of existing hulls, and perhaps in-game the faction doesn't have an autofactory or blueprints for any of its ships. By this mod providing the blueprints, that USP is lost and people are less likely to bother with using conversions as the author intended. It might not create a support issue for Meso, but it is detrimental to the concept that his mod introduced. And I'd rather that not happen.
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Straticus

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2019, 11:08:49 AM »

To the OP: Thank you for this cool mod. I intend to grab and start using it once im home from work tonight. Keep up the good work!

To the mod authors who are getting bent out of shape: Stop being an Arthmoor. Seriously. This is a single player game and this mod is actually pretty neat. Attacking a new modder is ridiculous and comes off as being callous.

You're welcome! I hope you enjoy it.

I don't feel attacked - a little disheartened by earlier replies I suppose, but that's what happens when you create something in a vacuum and realise what you've done could do with some improvement. And unless I've missed something everyone with a critical bent has been polite and constructive...
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Dostya

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2019, 11:24:21 AM »

Nobody seemed to really care about Omnifactory running on a blacklist, or players being able to subsequently turn off that blacklist in the settings file and build whatever. I'd go with that precedent. Also, this'll likely be in my next run because blueprint hunting is fun once, maybe twice. If a mod hardcodes incompatability, well, that mod's getting the boot. I've just started using Console Commands to solve that problem but this'll work more nicely.
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Straticus

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2019, 11:35:10 AM »

Nobody seemed to really care about Omnifactory running on a blacklist, or players being able to subsequently turn off that blacklist in the settings file and build whatever.

I thought the same but I realised the defining difference is that you the Omnifactory could only duplicate something you already had in your fleet or inventory, without bypassing the obstacles mod creators put in to get those goodies in the first place.
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Katsumi

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2019, 12:02:24 PM »

If this mod really offended me, I could just hardcode a crash when it's enabled and force people to choose; DME, or Vesperon, but not both at the same time. Who do you think wins that one?

What's with the ego-trip posturing man? We get it. DME is bigger and more popular. How good for you.

To the OP: Thank you for this cool mod. I intend to grab and start using it once im home from work tonight. Keep up the good work!

To the mod authors who are getting bent out of shape: Stop being an Arthmoor. Seriously. This is a single player game and this mod is actually pretty neat. Attacking a new modder is ridiculous and comes off as being callous.

You're welcome! I hope you enjoy it.

I don't feel attacked - a little disheartened by earlier replies I suppose, but that's what happens when you create something in a vacuum and realise what you've done could do with some improvement. And unless I've missed something everyone with a critical bent has been polite and constructive...

Straticus, I admire you maturity and grace. You can bet that if I made my first ever mod, and a number of big name modders came down on me like a ton of bricks with accusations of "violating modder ethics" and "forcing us to code around you" (to remove the very functionality your mod supports), you can be damn sure I wouldn't make another one.

And, as much as the egos floating around undercut their message, I do think a whitelist or blacklist or whatever is best for compatibility is a good idea. If it were up to me, though, I'd have that whitelist be a flag that's readily accessible to the player to switch however way they want. Sometimes it's fun to play around with the broken unbalanced secret stuff you were never meant to have, and having a way to "legitimately" obtain some OP Blade Breaker supership or manufacture unlimited Unsungs would, I think, be really cool.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2019, 12:26:40 PM »

Kudos to Straticus for taking positive feedback in a positive fashion; my initial interest in this mod was close to zero - I don't need something that replaces raiding because I don't raid - but if it's going to be getting interesting integration with other mods?  Yeah, that I'll install.

RE: blueprint hunting & fun: My personal perspective is that I treat blueprint-hunting not as a completion mechanic, but as a "Hey, what did I get to try and build an effective fleet out of this game?" mechanic.  I've had several games swing in wildly unexpected directions when, say, I got an early Doom blueprint, and suddenly my fleet was full of phase ships.  Or that one run where the only decent cruiser blueprint I got for about half the game was the DME Baikal-Brone, and so I had to figure out how to get the most out that clumsy-but-charming cruiser.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2019, 12:30:49 PM »

What's with the ego-trip posturing man? We get it. DME is bigger and more popular. How good for you.

Here it is in small words, since you have trouble with big ones; if I hated this mod and didn't want it to exist, I could just add that code. No argument, no feedback, I could just make it look as though his mod were too buggy to run properly. Most players would chalk it up to the newer mod being badly made, and stop using it. That's what muscling a new modder out would actually look like.

Instead, I gave feedback because I like it and I want it to be widely-used and play nice with other mods. I won't make that mistake again.

(And for the record, 'threatening' not to play my mod is like 'threatening' to give me a million dollars. You mean the most annoying players won't be sending me subliterate 'bug' reports about vanilla features? Where do I sign up?)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 12:33:06 PM by Soren »
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Psycho Landlord

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2019, 12:44:41 PM »

Dude, you really need to learn how to talk to people.

Hope you get this working in an agreeable fashion for everybody, Straticus, I think it's a neat idea.
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Alex

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2019, 01:15:09 PM »

Let's have no more off-topic stuff, flaming, etc here. It looks like a bleed-over from another thread, anyway, or an ongoing ... disagreement ... and it's discourteous to the OP to continue that here. Further responses in this vein will be deleted and other actions will be taken if needed. Thank you!


FWIW, I think this mod looks really interesting! I do agree that whitelisting etc seems like a good approach (absent a comprehensive algorithmic solution, which doesn't appear possible), and also kudos to Straticus for handling this well, as (at least imo) some of the initial feedback could've easily been taken the wrong way.
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ottodeluxe

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2019, 02:08:15 PM »

A while ago, I tried writing a small mod that adds a new bar event. This event lets you straight up purchase one of
a) a random blueprint package (I iterate over everything tagged pack_bp)
b) a random AI core (yes, you can buy an Alpha core, if you're lucky)
c) a nanoforge or even sync core

I have had many a crash during development, and I am sure not all crashes are sorted out even to this date, which is the main reason I never published the mod here on the forum. My approach to balance was to make the items prohibitively expensive (it IS smuggled deep-black-market goods we're talking about, you pay 9x the regular price) and making the event sort of rare (might be available once every two months in-game). Also,you might just be offered a pirate pack or a gamma core which you probably won't have any interest in. All those measures together were meant to make it a more late-game experience, when you can actually blow single digit millions on a core or bp, and you have to get lucky to even get an offer for something you want. I do not filter for player-owned blueprints or increse the chances for higher tier packs/goods with "progress" in any way. Maybe you can find an inspiration among those things, if you want to "balance" the mod more, or give people options.

Between this mod, my mod (which I might release, or PM me if you want the source) and the ability to buy blueprints in nex (which I have not net tried), there should be something for everyone. Me personally, I am not a fan of "gating" mechanics or content arbitrarily. However, I do appreciate mission chains and all the effort modders (and devs) put into a nice progression system, and also random loot. But when it comes down to RNG, I usually like to have the "intended" way to progress, which involves luck, or a less efficient sure-fire way. I mean, sometimes people just want to mess around and be OP or fly ships not intended for players.
Anyway, I'll give this mod a try, maybe I can steal learn something from it ;D
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FreedomFighter

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2019, 02:23:11 PM »

Nex BP market is randomized and you need to trade in the other BP in exchange for its own points to use in its own market. You still need to explore and sell the BP you don't want or duplicated like pirate BP. I got Victory class BP through that but It cost like 3-4 other BP combined.
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Maelstrom

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2019, 11:32:35 AM »

104640 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Ship hull spec [xlu_granite] not found!
java.lang.RuntimeException: Ship hull spec [xlu_granite] not found!
    at com.fs.starfarer.loading.do.super(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.loading.SpecStore.o00000(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.loading.SpecStore.o00000(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.settings.StarfarerSettings$1.getHullSpec(Unknown Source)
    at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.VesperonIntelManager.getKnown BlueprintsForFaction(VesperonIntelManager.java:263)
    at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.VesperonIntelManager.<init>(VesperonIntelManager.java:64)
    at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.bar.events.VesperonMembership BarEvent.<init>(VesperonMembershipBarEvent.java:47)
    at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.bar.events.VesperonMembership BarEventCreator.createBarEvent(VesperonMembershipBarEventCreator.java:8)
    at com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.intel.bar.events.BarEventManager.advance(BarEventManager.java:166)
    at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.advance(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

you're welcome :P
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DrakonST

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2019, 11:38:37 AM »

It XLU bug, not a Vesperon. And this will be fixed on last path.

Quote
Bugs:
      Removed the missing Granite hull on correlating files. Jeez.
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I a Russian. And i communicate with the help of Promt Translate. And I am a color-blind person.
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