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Author Topic: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.2.0 - 03/03/19  (Read 167194 times)

Katsumi

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2019, 12:50:43 AM »

I guess I just don't understand how the default behaviour of this mod breaks other mods.
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FreedomFighter

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2019, 12:51:09 AM »

If a mod is actively conflicting with most other mods, it is as good as dead.

This is true to any game with large assortment of mods and popular mods. It is best for mod to complimenting each other instead of conflicting unless it is major overhaul that requires itself to be standalone.

I guess I just don't understand how the default behaviour of this mod breaks other mods.

This mod is not directly conflicting with other mods or broke them directly but they have hidden stuff that supposes to be found by exploration or as a quest reward or does not suppose to easily obtain or unobtainable by the player at all. This mod let you easily obtain all of those and it will ruin the experience that those mods suppose to provide to the user. Fact is; it is actually a developer and modder side to prevent from such thing to happen. They need to do something to prevent player ruining themselves and not the other way around. You can't trust the user most of the times. It is best to normalize the experience so everyone is on the same page.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 12:58:09 AM by FreedomFighter »
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2019, 12:57:01 AM »

If a mod is actively conflicting with most other mods, it is as good as dead. There is not problem if you want to break your game by tinkering with mods, but the default behavior should be one that compliment the base game and other mods, not break them.

Your assumption is that modders will heavily restrict their content, and I can garantee you that you are mistaken.

A whitelist isn't just a courtesy: it ensure the maximum compatibility with other mods, while giving players the option to tinker with the mod to their specific tastes. That is actually the most versatile option and the one that requires the least amount of work for everyone, modders and players alike.

I can't possibly put it any better than this, good post Tarti :)

I guess I just don't understand how the default behaviour of this mod breaks other mods.

- If something is not meant to have a blueprint at all, or does something that replaces it with something else (hint, I am doing stuff like that!)? The current version of this mod breaks things.
- If something is a gate for more content, like in quest? The current version of this mod breaks things.
- If something is meant as Soren put it before not to be player usable at all, and then the player gets it? That breaks things. And as Tarti put it, cheating strait up with a Console Command is *not* the same thing as finding it during normal game play places so to speak like the current version of this mod.

AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2019, 12:58:37 AM »

[!] Public Service Announcement: There is a difference between a player modifying game files to suit their personal taste, and one mod modifying another mod's files beyond the player's actions, and even beyond the author's design of the affected mod.



One only affects the player making those changes in their copy of the game. The other affects ANYONE who downloads the culprit mod, whether they understand what it's doing or not. Do not make the argument that it's the same as the player editing game files themselves, because it simply is not true. The argument "they should know what they're doing by downloading this mod" is irrelevant because some people just are not smart, and still others will simply not read warning labels. (And, y'know, many people probably don't understand how the game or its mods work. Not everyone's a hacker pro.)

(Hint: This same argument can be applied to Console Commands versus this mod. A console command only affects YOU and YOUR GAME. Plus, you have to actively be trying to break *** to do that, whereas a mod like this without a whitelist will do that automatically by default, potentially without the player realizing.)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:09:56 AM by AxleMC131 »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2019, 01:08:44 AM »

I will also add that if a mod is a straight up cheat, it will see a lot less use than the same mod slightly modified to be in line with the game's mechanics by default.
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Katsumi

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2019, 01:11:44 AM »

If a mod is actively conflicting with most other mods, it is as good as dead.

This is true to any game with large assortment of mods and popular mods. It is best for mod to complimenting each other instead of conflicting unless it is major overhaul that requires itself to be standalone.

I guess I just don't understand how the default behaviour of this mod breaks other mods.

This mod is not directly conflicting with other mods or broke them directly but they have hidden stuff that supposes to be found by exploration or as a quest reward or does not suppose to easily obtain or unobtainable by the player at all. This mod let you easily obtain all of those and it will ruin the experience that those mods suppose to provide to the user. Fact is; it is actually a developer and modder side to prevent from such thing to happen. They need to do something to prevent player ruining themselves and not the other way around. You can't trust the user most of the times. It is best to normalize the experience so everyone is on the same page.

............ yeah, but this is a cheat mod though. It's supposed to make difficult to find stuff obtainable. It's not here to adhere to other modder's vision of how their own mods should be played. It's very clear that that is what this is, from reading the op, and it's each individual player's choice to mod the game as they so choose. If they don't want to make otherwise unobtainable or difficult to acquire stuff obtainable, they're perfectly free to just... not download Vesperon Combine. And if they do, they can! It's not another modder's job, prerogative, or right to police how other people mod and play the game.
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2019, 01:16:29 AM »


............ yeah, but this is a cheat mod though. ... It's very clear that that is what this is, from reading the op...

Actually it's not. It doesn't say anywhere "will give you ships from other mods that are normally locked out of the player's access". It hints at it in as many words, but most people probably don't realize what that means.

Also the author has pretty clearly implied this is not intended to be a cheat mod. It's a utility mod that allows the player to have access to things they otherwise may not in any given save game. The fact that there is still a challenge to beat is a giveaway that it ain't a simple cheat. If you want to cheat, use Console Commands and don't waste your time with a mod like this! :) It ain't rocket science.

And, once again, people don't read. Countless times I've talked to people who have downloaded mods without really understanding what they do. This is a prime example of one such mod that would cause real trouble if they did that. As an amateur modder, who has spoken to several very prolific and experienced modders, the need to spoon-feed stuff like this to players is real.

As I said before. If you want to make something foolproof, you have to take fools into account.
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Katsumi

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2019, 01:22:49 AM »

Also the author has pretty clearly implied this is not intended to be a cheat mod. It's a utility mod that allows the player to have access to things they otherwise may not in any given save game.

I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or not.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2019, 01:50:16 AM »

Says it right there:

Beyond the fluff, this is a small, lore-friendly...ish mod for those who are frustrated by the limited number of opportunities to find All The Things - well, blueprints at least - in a single playthrough. The opportunity to buy access to more locations as they crop up makes the experience repeatable, until the player can construct everything that is boardable and obtainable in the game.

This mod should only allow to get "obtainable" ships. Something that the previous approach didn't ensured, but a whitelist would.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2019, 06:35:18 AM »

This is a great mod and all the modders complaining about how it "doesn't conform to their vision" - it's an optional mod. Nobody is forced to download it when they get your mods, and nobody is going to blame you if this mod breaks your "balance". Please stop acting like your mods are part of vanilla starsector and deserve some kind of special protection.
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Dekent59

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2019, 07:40:34 AM »

Hey just wanted to let you know I am getting a crash related to the Granite from the XLU mod
99745 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Ship hull spec [xlu_granite] not found!
java.lang.RuntimeException: Ship hull spec [xlu_granite] not found!
   at com.fs.starfarer.loading.do.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.loading.SpecStore.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.loading.SpecStore.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.settings.StarfarerSettings$1.getHullSpec(Unknown Source)
   at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.VesperonIntelManager.getKnown BlueprintsForFaction(VesperonIntelManager.java:263)
   at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.VesperonIntelManager.<init>(VesperonIntelManager.java:64)
   at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.bar.events.VesperonMembership BarEvent.<init>(VesperonMembershipBarEvent.java:47)
   at org.stratic.fs.starsector.api.impl.campaign.intel.bar.events.VesperonMembership BarEventCreator.createBarEvent(VesperonMembershipBarEventCreator.java:8)
   at com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.intel.bar.events.BarEventManager.advance(BarEventManager.java:166)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
 


Wanted to try this out but getting the same error. 
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2019, 07:47:10 AM »

Actually, I don't care if it 'conforms to my vision' - I care that it meets the OP's design intent, which is not to make a cheat mod. If someone wants to make a mod that breaks stuff in mine, I'm fine with that; I'm just not going to design around it, either. This mod seemed like it was a cool enough idea to be worth suggesting revisions because it causes problems.

If this mod really offended me, I could just hardcode a crash when it's enabled and force people to choose; DME, or Vesperon, but not both at the same time. Who do you think wins that one? But I think it's the beginning of a good mod, worth improving, which is why I spoke up. That's what nurturing new modders looks like; if it doesn't meet your standards of Nice, complain to management.

(This seems like a basic social mistake made by a kid, who is used to adults being paid to put up with their exasperating behavior.)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 07:49:27 AM by Soren »
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FreedomFighter

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2019, 07:54:05 AM »

This is a great mod and all the modders complaining about how it "doesn't conform to their vision" - it's an optional mod. Nobody is forced to download it when they get your mods, and nobody is going to blame you if this mod breaks your "balance". Please stop acting like your mods are part of vanilla starsector and deserve some kind of special protection.

Why are you triggered over this despite the OP and co-modder admitted to revision it and other modder that came into this thread giving them advice and willing to help improve it? They're not asking OP to comfort their mod. They're asking OP if his mod can compliment with other mods out here to further improving the player experience.
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Troika

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2019, 07:56:07 AM »

I like the idea of this mod a lot. It's a nice compromise for being able to grab BPs that you want to complete a collection instead of scouring the sector to mabye not even find the last few.

Also, Soren, in my case, this mod would win over DME if you added crashcode. The 0.9 versions of your mod have not been good and you've generally responded poorly to criticism about it.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2019, 08:05:32 AM »

Also, Soren, in my case, this mod would win over DME if you added crashcode.

It's a hypothetical pointing out what *actual* nonconstructive behavior looks like; I don't have any intention to add crashcode, because the mod doesn't, actually, offend me, and the OP has already decided to revise it.

The 0.9 versions of your mod have not been good and you've generally responded poorly to criticism about it.

My heart bleeds. I am slain. Feel free to direct that to me in my actual thread, though.
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