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Author Topic: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun  (Read 3178 times)

RawCode

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Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« on: January 02, 2019, 07:12:23 AM »

Really, produced swarm of paragons and unable to deploy more then two (if station is alone, if ever single enemy ship present, only one)
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Megas

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2019, 12:25:34 PM »

Really, produced swarm of paragons and unable to deploy more then two (if station is alone, if ever single enemy ship present, only one)
200?  Yes, I dislike that size.  When I get capitals in my fleet, I can deploy two or three ships, and peak performance is a bigger problem that cruisers can have problems lasting, especially when AI decides to be cowards and backpedal and stall as long as possible.  To be honest, I am not sure 500 is big enough in 0.9, with huge enemy fleets and battlestations.  Fights are bigger than they used to be.

Even at 500 size, I can only deploy about six ships if one of them is a Paragon.  If Paragon is not involved, I may deploy about eight.

Maximum battle size needs to be at least 800 or 1000.

I will take slowdown for fleet action over SuperMelee duels.
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Alex

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2019, 12:33:08 PM »

Related note: for .1, the side attacking the station will get extra deployment points, which are in addition to the battle size.

There's also a bug where it defaults the battleSize to 200 instead of 300 (which is more comfortable here); haven't investigated that one yet.
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RawCode

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2019, 08:07:00 PM »

Also please check AI logic on deployment, i managed to wipe 8 onslaughts !!!double!!! hegemony raid (one is AI inspection and one is free port attack) with t2 midline station and chain deployment of frigates, just because AI first deployed all smaller ships, then deployed phase frigates, then started to deploy lone onslaughts just just to be flanked and "melted from behind".

eventually AI destroyed station but managed to do this only because AI of station wasted all squalls and reapers on frigates that swarmed stations from all sides nonstop.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2019, 08:10:22 PM »

Related note: for .1, the side attacking the station will get extra deployment points, which are in addition to the battle size.

There's also a bug where it defaults the battleSize to 200 instead of 300 (which is more comfortable here); haven't investigated that one yet.
I think that is because that was the old default setting and you only changed said default, so it didn't update.
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Deshara

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2019, 08:36:02 PM »

AI first deployed all smaller ships

eventually AI destroyed station but only because station wasted all squalls and reapers on frigates that swarmed stations from all sides nonstop.

plz Alex fix the bug where the enemy AI does the smart thing sieges the station with frigates & forces my station to expend its reapers before the onslaughts show up
lol

it sounds like, if intended, the AI is set up to turn a station defense into a drawn-out frigate-killing battle with an objective to defend before the primetime slugfest starts
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2019, 08:56:53 PM »

AI first deployed all smaller ships

eventually AI destroyed station but only because station wasted all squalls and reapers on frigates that swarmed stations from all sides nonstop.

plz Alex fix the bug where the enemy AI does the smart thing sieges the station with frigates & forces my station to expend its reapers before the onslaughts show up
lol

it sounds like, if intended, the AI is set up to turn a station defense into a drawn-out frigate-killing battle with an objective to defend before the primetime slugfest starts
Yes I would consider that a bug. It is like the plasma cannon shooting at a fighter: massive overkill at best, expends precious flux or ammo firing into the void at the worst
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Hellya

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2019, 10:21:46 PM »

Really, produced swarm of paragons and unable to deploy more then two (if station is alone, if ever single enemy ship present, only one)

That is the case. However, when I crank up the deployment limit I can kick everything's arse from here to Never Never Land in under 1 minute. The balance is off, but, I am not sure swarms of ships make it better as tactics go out the window with easy wins from overpowered player fleets.

In all honesty, I think the current game mechanic is the limiting factor (No offence Alex, I am only spitballin here). It leaves two outcomes that I see; slugfest, or swarms. There might be merit in looking at other alternatives to fleet composition and limits. Maybe a total amount of points that a fleet can have of based on pure combat ships, a max fleet of combat capable ships based on a skill. Ships such as the hauler/combat role ships could be classified as none combatant or militant ships, and should be restricted purely by the current game deployment limit. This would force you to utilize a few select combat ships and a great number of militant ships. I feel it would also limit a degree the cheesy fleets with 20*3 types of ships that are OP.

A mock load out, of sorts, for max combat deployment skilled player (20 combat points):

1 paragon (6 points)
2 Heron (4 points each)
2 Medusa (2 points each)
2 frigates (1 point each)

Rest of fleet filled out with militant and industrial ships to a total of current cap of 25:

4 Colossus MK.III
2 Mule
2 Shepherd
10 Buffalo Mk.II, because you are super masochistic (This would actually be a combat ship!!!! pick something else).

Keep in mind I think the current way of limiting fleet is still required in addition, higher limit though, maybe 600 or more. This allows you to field your select combat ships and your trash compactors with thrusters, I mean militant ships, and be able to take that station/fleet with some planning.

We are going to lose ships with these limitations, I believe this should be expected and part of the game. I don't believe everything should be fight or flight, there should be some guess work and some planning. When you leave your base to take on a station/fleet you had better have planned right for that opponent type and gear the right stuff. Failure to plan or use tactics to your advantage should lead to extreme failure.

Just my two cents.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 10:31:42 PM by Hellya »
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RawCode

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2019, 11:33:32 PM »

AI first deployed all smaller ships

eventually AI destroyed station but only because station wasted all squalls and reapers on frigates that swarmed stations from all sides nonstop.

plz Alex fix the bug where the enemy AI does the smart thing sieges the station with frigates & forces my station to expend its reapers before the onslaughts show up
lol

it sounds like, if intended, the AI is set up to turn a station defense into a drawn-out frigate-killing battle with an objective to defend before the primetime slugfest starts

it's plain stupid to shot reapers on hounds with 250 speed, ever if reaper do hit hound, it's just overkill and waste.

ps

with such hard deployment limits there are no reasons to run industry and produce ships at all, it does not matter can you produce and maintain 30 paragons fleet, attacking enemy station will have constant difficulty, constant compared to owning single paragon, as in most cases you can't deploy more then one at once.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 11:39:46 PM by RawCode »
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Euphytose

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2019, 05:00:04 AM »

To be fair you really don't need more than one. And having several Paragons in a fleet is still useful, since you can switch ship after a fight, and keep fighting without worrying about CR.
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RawCode

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2019, 08:00:24 AM »

To be fair you really don't need more than one. And having several Paragons in a fleet is still useful, since you can switch ship after a fight, and keep fighting without worrying about CR.

to be fair, i don't need entire industry part of game at all, just as exploration, and probably i don't ever need quests, yes, quests not needed, same for officers, and fuel, who need fuel when you not leaving corvus and just farm local pirate spawns for days?

forget word "need", it's about game flow, risk and reward, balance and progression.

industry stuff have very special reward - unmanageable random events, that cannot be stopped, and you start to hate said events really fast, and this only reward you get compared to commission with tritach.

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Megas

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2019, 08:29:34 AM »

industry stuff have very special reward - unmanageable random events, that cannot be stopped, and you start to hate said events really fast, and this only reward you get compared to commission with tritach.
What random events?  So far, the worst is the annual schedule of two faction expeditions (auto-resolved by system defenses), one pirate activity caused by base (must be hunted), and one active Pather cell fed by base (also must be hunted).

And if I am not babysitting my colonies, I am babysitting someone else's so they do not decivilize.

@ Hellya:  There used be Fleet Ponts or Logistics before 0.7 era.  With 100 points, you could have about five capitals or forty frigates or something in-between.  Back then, they mostly honored that too.  Today, we have fleet cap while AI constantly violates that cap (and peak performance for many ships is not enough to fight them all).
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Alex

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2019, 09:31:21 AM »

eventually AI destroyed station but only because station wasted all squalls and reapers on frigates that swarmed stations from all sides nonstop.

plz Alex fix the bug where the enemy AI does the smart thing sieges the station with frigates & forces my station to expend its reapers before the onslaughts show up
lol

(Stations have unlimited missile ammo... if a vanilla station module happens not to, that's a bug. Edit: to clarify, they *can* briefly run out of ammo, but fully reload frequently.)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 09:48:41 AM by Alex »
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Linnis

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Re: Default battlesize limits makes fighting stations unfun
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2019, 11:26:31 AM »

To be fair you really don't need more than one. And having several Paragons in a fleet is still useful, since you can switch ship after a fight, and keep fighting without worrying about CR.

Actually.... Having more deployment points in your fleets into the several hundred means you will get a bigger share of the limited deployment points that is split between the enemy and the player.

This is why I have several cruisers with no officers and both economy hullmods.
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