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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: realism overhaul: Replacing flux system with reactor system and energy system  (Read 9367 times)

ufo1996215

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English is not my mother tongue. These contents come from translation. There may be some inaccuracies.

I think flux system is interesting, but it lacks some realistic, I have a better realism overhaul:

use the reactor system or energy system instead of flux system.

Adding the reactor core system for the game. all hulls need to be installed with a reactor core. The reactors come in a variety of sizes depending on the size of the hull. And there are many different technology grade reactors that can be used (Such as nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, zero energy, cold fusion, sigma energy core, etc.). Large ships can be fitted with small reactors if you want LOL.
*Reactors are easily damaged during an explosion and can also be damaged in the event of severe structural damage.

Adding the Energy system for the game. The energy system is the energy container of the hull that stores the energy of the reactor for use. Energy system modules come in different sizes and technology levels (Nanocapacitor module, nuclear capacitor module, zero energy ring module, sigma module, etc.). Ultimately will depend on the size of the hull (large ships can install small modules).
*The energy system will operate inefficiently when subjected to severe structural damage.

When the weapon is activated, it is the same as the shield and requires static energy consumption to maintain.
Only activated weapons can fire. When the weapon fires, it needs to consume the corresponding energy value.

Shields needs energy to maintain (Equivalent to the previous soft flux).
The shield needs to consume energy to protect against every hit. The amount of energy consumed depends on the incoming firepower.
Shields can be at different 'hardness', from 0 to 100% resilience, and will cost different energy to maintain. At the same time reduce the corresponding damage.
Phase hull, entering the phase state will directly consume energy (This means that the phase hull must be cautiously fighting).

The reactor can charge the energy system if the reactor has surplus energy.
If the reactor is too weak or poor and there is no surplus at all, then the energy system will not be able to recharge. This means that once the energy system is used up, the ship must be evacuated immediately.

In combat, if the energy is completely consumed, the ship will be in a low-energy state, and the weapon or shield may off-line because there is not enough energy to sustain it.
At this time, the player has two choices, temporarily off the front line and waiting for the reactor to recharge. Or turn off some weapons or shields to ensure enough reactor power to sustain the battle.

If take the above improvements, the game will be more realistic. At the same time, every fight must be taken more seriously.
Players must match the ship's reactor and energy systems and weapon systems well, and manage and use energy, weapon systems and defense systems in battle.
Such improvements are far more meaningful than current fluxsystems.


I am looking forward to a more realistic combat experience.  8)

pinyin: you lai zi zhong guo de wan jia ma? zou qi! zhi chi yi xia ba!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 04:09:22 AM by ufo1996215 »
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Deshara

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I too look forward to a more realistic depiction of zero point flux reactors and energy shield wielding interstellar SSTO space battleships lol
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Sutopia

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Your "reactor core" is equivalent to flux dissipation and your "energy system" is simply total flux pool. I don't see any magic in there.
It's just a different of full status being "full energy" or "empty flux". I don't see anything different from current system other than some wording.

The big difference, if any, is removing hard flux from game, which would be a disaster. Hard flux is one of the core battle mechanism. If you remove it you don't call it starsector, done. It's not a realism problem, it's more of a mechanism problem.
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Inventor Raccoon

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This kind of just sounds like you're over complicating the existing flux system unnecessarily. I don't really see anything that's functionally different except you're replacing the simple capacitor/vent system with upgradable reactors/energy systems and making weapons require an additional activation step before being used. Shields already vary in strength and upkeep costs depending on the ship. Phase ships already have a specific instant cost and upkeep cost depending on the ship. Ships already overload and are put into an extremely bad spot if flux isn't properly managed.
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Tei

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You want more "realistic" combat? Remove all shields, put massive emphasis on armor, hull, and point defense.

Suddenly everything plays like a love child of Battlestar Galactic and The Expanse. Extremely high lethality amd every blow HURTS.
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Sutopia

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You want more "realistic" combat? Remove all shields, put massive emphasis on armor, hull, and point defense.

Suddenly everything plays like a love child of Battlestar Galactic and The Expanse. Extremely high lethality amd every blow HURTS.
In sci-fi scenario, idk why but people kinda "expect" some form of shield for spaceships, which is nonsense, I have to agree.
A more realistic approach would be a hell ton of "Arena"-like system that detects incoming threat then fires defensive projectiles to intercept, which is just point defense as you mentioned. The armor is not gonna do much due to everything can accelerate to ridiculous speed and have incredible momentum thus avoiding direct impact is the top priority. Just a scratch is sufficient to tear a giant hull apart, given the incoming projectile have either good mass or good speed. A typical space junk is already flying at around 5 miles PER SECOND (over 20 Mach), even just a pinball can deal massive damage at that speed.
A "shield"-like defensive is possible nonetheless, but it would be a fleet-sized gigantic shield that basically using magnetic field, same as earth, to deflect charged projectiles. However, it cannot stop any neutral projectile, or enemy can carefully calculate the deflected course and lay down a "curve-ball" that you can hardly dodge.
Anything superior than that is pure fantasy, not realistic.
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ufo1996215

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Your "reactor core" is equivalent to flux dissipation and your "energy system" is simply total flux pool. I don't see any magic in there.
It's just a different of full status being "full energy" or "empty flux". I don't see anything different from current system other than some wording.

The big difference, if any, is removing hard flux from game, which would be a disaster. Hard flux is one of the core battle mechanism. If you remove it you don't call it starsector, done. It's not a realism problem, it's more of a mechanism problem.

Yes, the reactor and energy system seem to be not much different from the flux system, but the core difference is that the game's realism is improved.

reactor and energy system VS flux system:

[Hull reactor and energy core VS hull flux core]
Cores with different sizes and technology grades, depending on the size of the hull. The hull can be installed with a low-tech core to reduce performance but reduce maintenance costs. or fitted with a high-tech core to improve performance but increase maintenance costs.
In the flux system, each hull has its own flux core features and cannot be core modified and replaced. Although you can increase the pool and the amount of dissipation.

[Variable Strength Shield VS flux Shield]
Shields require some energy for deployment and require energy to sustain. The adjustable shield strength and the required energy cost will also vary. Each time the shield intercepts or reduces damage, it needs to spend the corresponding energy value.
In the flux system, the shield is added to the flux, and when the shield up, it is unbreakable, This is a magic shield, isn't it?

[Low energy state VS flux overload]
If the energy pool is used up, the energy provided by the reactor is not enough to maintain a huge energy cost. The shield and some weapons are off-line, and the player can actively turn off some weapons to maintain the shield, or actively close the shield to keep some weapons working. If you don't do this, the ship will soon enter a low performance state.and must be supported and protected. And you need to find a short window to restore energy levels. and There will be no forced charging (forced dissipation/vent), there is no shortcut key V.
On the flux system, you can safely force the dissipation/vent of the flux to quickly re-enter the battle. Even if the flux is overloaded, if you are flying fast, you can still safely get out of the fight.

[change in combat strategy]
In the energy system, the player must reasonably manage the distribution of energy output, use weapons and shields reasonably, and if the shield is keep online, ship will enter the low-energy state more quickly. So players must use shields more wisely. Because there is no shortcut key V, once in a low energy state, the ship must be temporarily out of combat or get support from friendly forces, otherwise it will be at a disadvantage.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 07:59:41 PM by ufo1996215 »
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Sutopia

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TL;DR

Energy system is as nonsense as flux if you're really want any "realism". As yourself have admitted, it's nothing but wording change which make even more nonsense.

Flux can be explained in the following, if any, realism explanation:
Consider a computer. It generates heat when it's on, it generates more heat if it's under heavy load. If you don't dissipate the heat, the CPU and other electronics can be cooked and suffer permanent damage.
Flux serves similar purpose, assuming human have some high-end energy reactor that supplies any energy you want, now the only problem is the dissipation of waste heat. If you don't dissipate it, it'll fry your hardware sooner or later, and overload is there to prevent permanent damage to hardware, just like fuse. You're a temporary sitting duck if you got overloaded, you're a permanent sitting duck 100% dead if hardware burned, so you'd better go overload right?
Under this perspective, flux system is actually much more credible than energy system since you did not regard where all the waste heat go, or rather it's just much lower tech battle when weapons don't even generate large amount of heat.

Either way, energy system doesn't sound any realism to me.
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Mr. Nobody

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The armor is not gonna do much due to everything can accelerate to ridiculous speed and have incredible momentum thus avoiding direct impact is the top priority. Just a scratch is sufficient to tear a giant hull apart, given the incoming projectile have either good mass or good speed. A typical space junk is already flying at around 5 miles PER SECOND (over 20 Mach), even just a pinball can deal massive damage at that speed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipple_shield
*shatters ur hypervelocity round*
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DatonKallandor

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[Hull reactor and energy core VS hull flux core]
Cores with different sizes and technology grades, depending on the size of the hull. The hull can be installed with a low-tech core to reduce performance but reduce maintenance costs. or fitted with a high-tech core to improve performance but increase maintenance costs.
In the flux system, each hull has its own flux core features and cannot be core modified and replaced. Although you can increase the pool and the amount of dissipation.

[Variable Strength Shield VS flux Shield]
Shields require some energy for deployment and require energy to sustain. The adjustable shield strength and the required energy cost will also vary. Each time the shield intercepts or reduces damage, it needs to spend the corresponding energy value.
In the flux system, the shield is added to the flux, and when the shield up, it is unbreakable, This is a magic shield, isn't it?

[Low energy state VS flux overload]
If the energy pool is used up, the energy provided by the reactor is not enough to maintain a huge energy cost. The shield and some weapons are off-line, and the player can actively turn off some weapons to maintain the shield, or actively close the shield to keep some weapons working. If you don't do this, the ship will soon enter a low performance state.and must be supported and protected. And you need to find a short window to restore energy levels. and There will be no forced charging (forced dissipation/vent), there is no shortcut key V.
On the flux system, you can safely force the dissipation/vent of the flux to quickly re-enter the battle. Even if the flux is overloaded, if you are flying fast, you can still safely get out of the fight.

That's just inverting the flux bar and having it start full and go down instead of start empty and go up.

Your customizable reactors is exactly what the flux dissipation and capacity buttons are. Better reactor = more dissipation/capacity.

Your shield is just like the current shields - the amount of flux taken already depends on the strength of the hits and it already has an upkeep for being toggled on.

Your low energy state is just removing the vent button and does nothing else new.
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Sutopia

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The armor is not gonna do much due to everything can accelerate to ridiculous speed and have incredible momentum thus avoiding direct impact is the top priority. Just a scratch is sufficient to tear a giant hull apart, given the incoming projectile have either good mass or good speed. A typical space junk is already flying at around 5 miles PER SECOND (over 20 Mach), even just a pinball can deal massive damage at that speed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipple_shield
*shatters ur hypervelocity round*
"Heh- nuttin personnel, kiddo"

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I never thought it was possible to cringe to the point of actually feel physical pain before
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For space war, if exists, it's not hard to imagine crazy engineers making projectiles as fast as possible and eventually everyone go for projectiles with over 100 Mach speed.

Even if they're not coming in that extreme speed, bear in mind that warheads are NOT easily shattered if using correct material to build it's bulk. That shield is not gonna do a thing against a specially hardened shell (especially HVAP-like shells).
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Death_Silence_66

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For space war, if exists, it's not hard to imagine crazy engineers making projectiles as fast as possible and eventually everyone go for projectiles with over 100 Mach speed.

Even if they're not coming in that extreme speed, bear in mind that warheads are NOT easily shattered if using correct material to build it's bulk. That shield is not gonna do a thing against a specially hardened shell (especially HVAP-like shells).
It absolutely is. Material properties are irrelevant as velocities exceed 20 km/s. The projectile will instantly flash to plasma on contact with any physical barrier. The resulting plasma will expand as a cone, allowing spaced whipple shields filled with aerogel to defeat any projectile attack if sufficiently thick.
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Sutopia

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It absolutely is. Material properties are irrelevant as velocities exceed 20 km/s. The projectile will instantly flash to plasma on contact with any physical barrier. The resulting plasma will expand as a cone, allowing spaced whipple shields filled with aerogel to defeat any projectile attack if sufficiently thick.

Any reference on this? There is no reason materials magically turn into plasma.
To be precise, if only you're able to heat the material to enough temperature then you get plasma. 20 km/s is insufficient.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 06:28:25 PM by Sutopia »
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intrinsic_parity

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An impact at 20 km/s would absolutely heat any material immensely. Some kinetic energy is going to be absorbed and converted into thermal energy. If all of that kinetic energy was converted directly into thermal energy, aluminum could end up at temperatures exceeding 200000000 C. I got that just using simple linear kinetic energy equation and specific heat capacity of aluminum, very back of the napkin and not very accurate, but the point is the amount of energy not the exact number. The vaporization temperature of aluminum is ~2300 C so even if a small fraction of the total energy were converted to thermal energy, aluminum would vaporize. The transition to plasma is a bit more tricky, it doesn't happen at an exact temperature but gradually since plasma is just highly ionized gas. I don't know enough to say exactly what would happen, but it's clear that the energy is there to turn any material to plasma.

Also mach number is not a relevant quantity in space. Mach number is the ratio of velocity to the speed of sound in the current medium (i.e. air or whatever fluid is being flown through) which is a function of the medium temperature, density and a gas constant. It's obviously only relevant when moving through a gas/fluid. In space, there is no medium being moved through therefore there is no speed of sound and thus no mach number.
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Sutopia

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TL;DQ

It's LMAO math you got there. The kinetic energy doesn't go anywhere, they remain on the projectile itself and dig deep into your hull until it eventually vaporize or put another hole and just leave.
You get the very least possible assumption that all kinetic energy turn into heat immediately, which is 99.99% not the case, especially for very high speed projectile.

Forget about mach, talk in SI, sure. A 20 km/s projectile is more likely to punch nice hole through your hull, leaving with 19 km/s instead of magically stuck in your hull and release all that kinetic energy, unless otherwise designed to do so.
Even modern tank shells and naval gun shells don't magically stuck on enemy tanks or vessels. APFSDS can easily just put two holes on a tank and pass right through, same goes for navy gun AP shells would put two holes instead of correctly detonate it's charge inside the vessel.

So I'm seeing where you get all wrong. What you observe is APHE shell behavior. The are designed to put a hole in enemy armor, THEN detonate the charge it carried within the hull to directly kill the crew. It's still NOT the kinetic energy doing any real damage, but the HE charge carried by the shell. Spaced armor CANNOT defend against pure AP shells. They are designed to defend against HEAT shells such as well-known RPG-7.

Go play some more tank games before judging physics.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 10:36:14 PM by Sutopia »
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