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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking  (Read 24632 times)

Agalyon

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2018, 02:31:55 AM »

I haven't extensively tested it myself, but just throwing my two cents in, I do definitely think it should scale, but I also think it might scale too hard right now. The idea about having a limit on how fast it can boom up and having some kind of decay in place as well is a great idea. This isn't super relevant but I remember in older versions as well, bounties and whatnot would get totally out of control insanely quickly once you started tearing into them. What RawCode said about the scaling spawning more ships which causes you to kill more, and make the scaling rise even faster is absolutely true, and I don't like it at all. I'm not saying you should be able to play the game in frigate mode forever, but there reaches a point when It feels like you almost have to run a huge deathball and keeping low is no longer a real option.

I think this is all important because it seems like a lot of the design choices have been moving toward this idea of choosing how much of a splash you want to make and how large of a fleet you want to run with the sensor ranges and burn speed changes and whatnot. Having the scaling jump that hard that fast kind of defeats the purpose in my eyes.
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iamseron

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2018, 10:14:01 PM »

If there is not a lore-related reason for the game world to scale in any way this is bad (albeit common) design. If nothing else there should at least be some kind of story fluff to make sense that ship availability, fleet sizes, enemy strength, etc. mysteriously increase (instead of decrease) due to time passage and enemies killed. Afaik it is actually the opposite in the lore- that after the fall of the Domain resources are scattered and everyone is fighting for the dwindling remains.

There should definitely be changes in the game as it progresses but those changes should be consistent and logical within the framework of the game lore. Why can a bounty hunter with two tiny ships become a fleet commander in one cycle but not repeat the same feat in the next cycle? What fundamentally changes to where this is no longer a possibility and what is the in-game justification of those pathways being blocked? Why is there an "early game" and "late game" instead of just one sandbox game?

Ultimately it comes down to the breaking of immersion and turning the game into an unsatisfying endless grind. My preferred alternative to scaling would be to set up robust systems that are not dependent on the player's actions, inaction, time played, etc. A good example of this are the factions and zombies in SPAZ2 which exist and fight and grow independent of the player. Zombie infestations can be triggered and thwarted by the player OR the NPCs who can then make their own go of running amok. Most importantly there are a plethora of toggles and options to make the game suit the player which is always very satisfying.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 10:36:33 PM by iamseron »
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Alex

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2018, 10:37:46 PM »

What you're describing is pretty much how it works. That is, there are good backstory reasons for stuff to happen how it does. As just one example. attacking REDACTED drones triggers self-defense subroutines and, being part of a connected swarm, they re-activate and use some of their mass/resources to produce additional defenses. There are nods to this in-game, if the player cares to read some of the interaction text and make some inferences.

(Hi, and welcome to the forum, btw!)
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iamseron

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2018, 10:38:40 PM »

Tbh I just got the game two days ago and reading about scaling really put me off. I'm not 100% familiar with the game systems yet and I was afraid of what I might run into. I'm relieved it isn't what I thought it was.

However, I have noticed that the bounty target fleets are increasing in size and strength as my game progresses. This seems like the kind of pointless grindy scaling which I dislike so much. Is that not what is occuring? Why aren't there weak and strong pirates at all times instead of ones scaled to where I am in the game?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 10:43:04 PM by iamseron »
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Alex

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2018, 10:52:37 PM »

Ah, yeah, I can see how it would do that. Also, to clarify, there's no level-based scaling. There *is* some time-based growth (i.e. some - not all - pirates get stronger with time, due to the Sector's overall downward spiral backstory-wise, and of course this is desirable for the mechanics.)

(It's just one of those things where you can decide to approach it by finding ways to think about it that make it make sense - or not. I think for a sandbox it's going to be that way almost no matter what, within reason, anyway. I don't know if that makes sense - like, you're basically creating a story in your head as you play, right? And you can make it make sense unless something is just really absurd, and probably even then. The game should try to make this not too difficult, but there'll always be ways to make it *not* make sense.

In any case, I hope you enjoy the game :) Also, my apologies for spoiling some of the REDACTED stuff.)
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2018, 10:04:45 AM »

In any case, I hope you enjoy the game :) Also, my apologies for spoiling some of the REDACTED stuff.)
Why not use a spoiler tag? :)
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RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2018, 09:57:30 PM »

issue is not scaling itself (kay this is not level based, but looks like level based anyway, ever if you read all lore and dialogs carefully, it still looks like level based) , issue is spiky and jiggy nature of scaling, i will be happy for drone stuff scale much higher, and eventually spawn "dat volandemort REDACTED stuff" as part of defense for typical probes, this will be quite funny, and i will be happy to find insane deathball final boss on cryosleeper with multiple 30 stacks waiting for hour long battle with multiple turns.

but...

It should scale much smoother, it may scale faster and higher, but scaling should be smooth, probably game should first maximize number and size of ships, and only after that start to remove dmods, transition from bunch of heavy dmodded drones to stack of cruisers in pristine condition can be single combat, as script record deployment cost of defeated ships, and that result in exponent growth, but it should be logarithm instead.
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diegoweiller

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2019, 01:42:35 PM »

Just managing to play the last update and i got a recommendation: instead of scaling named bounties over time or lvl, do it over fleet points. would also like to understand those, how is each sheep evaluated?
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- And the lord poked his head out from the patron clouds, to look down on his followers in chaos and anarchy as the world was already aflame, out he tossed a canister of gasoline, and out from his mouth his words were: "Screw it."

RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2019, 04:59:10 AM »

it will be obvilion, literally, and getting more ships will make you weaker...

i hate scaling, just hate it, this is cheap and crappy design move,
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angrytigerp

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2019, 09:50:58 AM »

it will be obvilion, literally, and getting more ships will make you weaker...

i hate scaling, just hate it, this is cheap and crappy design move,

It's not "cheap and crappy", it's a design choice by Alex. The alternative is having "stronger" presences in certain sectors, and for me that's not compelling because while I appreciate the sort of linear advancement of challenge the first time I play, in subsequent play throughs I feel I'd get bored and feel like it's a grind to get through the "early stages" until I'm at a point where pirates, for example, hold no threat to me.

Once you cross those thresholds, it becomes a chore to have to keep fending off little d-modded fleets challenging you. The game, being meant to have a dynamic sector evolution, isn't supposed to be linear in this fashion.

Ideally, and hopefully as Alex tweaks things in subsequent releases we get to this point, factions will build up organically and it'll make sense to have three thirty ship fleets orbiting a homeworld, joining in when you do a station assault. Until then, I like how you're consistently challenged, because let's face it: once you have ten fully skilled officers and have full skills yourself, even if skills aren't as OP as before, pretty much the only challenge comes from the enemy overwhelming you with numbers.
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Vayra

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2019, 09:58:49 AM »

RE: Scaling being "too fast", "too hard"... You know, that's definitely not the same experience that I (or many others, judging by the two-three other active threads right now about how Starsector as a whole and Domain drones specifically might be too easy) have had with this game. ;)

In fact the only things that I can think of that scale are:
  • bounties (which are quite easy without mods due to little ship/weapon selection and getting reduced scaling in 0.9.1a if I recall correctly anyway)
  • derelicts (which scale only based on player input, not progression, and are easy regardless)
  • and... maybe pirate bases? (which are easy regardless as well)

edit: note i am referring to scaling with time, in the case of bounties and pirate bases. nothing scales with level
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:52:52 AM by Vayra »
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mehgamer

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2019, 10:41:39 AM »

Either it scales, and people will always be unhappy with the rate because of the sheer sensitivity to it all (big fleets are so exponentially more deadly than small ones, and player fleets fluctuate in size in a matter of weeks ingame even though the campaign features take months to tick through things), or it doesn't scale, and early game is torture until late game is mindlessly easy.

Hell, late game is already kind of mindless in vanilla and this is one of the main problems mods and many of the base game updates have hoped to resolve over time, to varying success.  But at its core this game is a fleet bashing simulator, eventually you're just going to have a big fleet and will bash it against the biggest fleets in the area, there's no real way to resolve that currently.  At least that I know of.

Seriously though people complain about scaling, not scaling, the rate of scaling, and while they're all valid ideas to have (I mean, any feedback is on some level useful) it's also a complaint I hear a lot without solutions.

Also, honestly, if you want my take?  I can go from one of the starting options in vanilla to having enough ships to take on the biggest capital ship tier pirate bounties in like two hours.  Heck, if I do the apogee start I can do it nearly instantly - a pristine apogee is worth three pirate cruisers, you just need a few semi durable escort ships for your murder machine.
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Alex

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2019, 10:56:28 AM »

(Obligatory "there isn't any meaningful level scaling in the game" every time this comes back, to avoid confusion.)
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angrytigerp

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2019, 11:21:54 AM »

(Obligatory "there isn't any meaningful level scaling in the game" every time this comes back, to avoid confusion.)

Shhhh! Who do you think you are, the developer? /Sarcasm

Yeah but like you said (I mean, you did design the system after all...), The only real "scaling" is in bounties and such, and it'd be boring as hell to me to take my 30-ship capital death fleet to go stomp on a couple deserters in some frigates. It's just silly. I like that you get harder and more difficult bounties as you progress, as they present a means of "advancing" gameplay-wise if you don't want to fight a Hegemony deathball over Jangala or something.

If the few things that do scale didn't feel organic, I might have a bit more gripes with it, but my in-universe explanation is you're more likely to be given details on bounties involving people with full capital-led fleets as you gain more fame and notoriety in the sector. Or like, your comms officer doesn't even bother sending up bounty info about 300 DP fleets when they know you're only 100 DP.

Quote
But at its core this game is a fleet bashing simulator, eventually you're just going to have a big fleet and will bash it against the biggest fleets in the area, there's no real way to resolve that currently.  At least that I know of.

Very true. Perhaps we could get dial-a-condition starts, where you can choose from a list of end goals ("Conquer 3 Hegemony-owned colonies of size 7 or greater by year X", "Own # of colonies size 7 or greater by year Y", ) something to encourage "domination" or "economic" win conditions.

Right now, you kind of have to set your own goals or "win conditions", otherwise yeah, it's "race to get a full 30-ship capital fleet and you win".
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:29:42 AM by angrytigerp »
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Alex

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2019, 11:45:14 AM »

The only real "scaling" is in bounties and such,

<checks patch notes> as of .9, there's no level scaling in bounties, either - it was a small component of their strength before, but now doesn't factor in at all. They do get stronger over time, though.

So: there isn't any level scaling in the game at all at this point.

but my in-universe explanation is you're more likely to be given details on bounties involving people with full capital-led fleets as you gain more fame and notoriety in the sector.

(Yep, that's a good way to think about it in-fiction, imo!)
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