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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hostile Activity (09/01/22)

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Author Topic: Increase planetary stocks  (Read 13737 times)

nomadic_leader

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2018, 08:58:10 AM »

The game being 95% a combat game, with nearly every mechanic leading back to combat. Starsector has truly excellent combat and cool warship design: if players aren't doing that, they aren't playing a very good game.

Where are you getting 95% figure? 95% of playtime? I reckon it's not for most players. 95% of developer focus? What's the quantification?

Exploration/sneaking side of SS is better than the combat. Beautiful environments, compelling atmosphere, there's real jeopardy sneaking around unexplored systems as a small fleet, plus fun fleet logistics. I get more endorphins from finding weird planets, hiding from AIs in asteroid belts, and discovering space treasure than I do from combat.

SS Combat is overrated.

It's the nature of the gamey square map it takes place on, the way it's boxed off from the rest of campaign behind dialogue clickthrus, and the way that it is usually not that interesting. If it isn't fleeing, then it's usually  two fairly equal masses of warships moving towards each other, which is the least interesting/challenging scenarios from a tactical standpoint. The action is slow; ships lumber around spamming pilum or whatever missiles that are even slower than a lot of the ships.

Or, it's mod mary-sue factions.

Though combat has a potential to be good, it lacks varied tactical play. It's  pokemon with the addition of some Freudian complex involving giant cannons and always winning (or reloading if you don't). The graphics aren't as pretty as campaign either; most ship sprites become shapeless pixel masses because of the number of weapon mounts.  The game constantly adds tonnes of new content that is outside combat. It doesn't matter what you want the game to be or what the developer wants it to be, what matters is what it actually is: Not 95% combat.

So legal trade and smuggling trade's inclusion can both only add to the game experience overall.
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Deshara

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2018, 09:23:52 PM »

The game being 95% a combat game, with nearly every mechanic leading back to combat. Starsector has truly excellent combat and cool warship design: if players aren't doing that, they aren't playing a very good game.

Where are you getting 95% figure? 95% of playtime?

95% of a player's time, multiplied by how much focus it takes.
five minutes of exploration doesn't count the same as five minutes of combat if you just set a course and put your feet up till you're there.
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I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

Lopunny Zen

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2018, 11:46:37 AM »

The game being 95% a combat game, with nearly every mechanic leading back to combat. Starsector has truly excellent combat and cool warship design: if players aren't doing that, they aren't playing a very good game.

Where are you getting 95% figure? 95% of playtime?

95% of a player's time, multiplied by how much focus it takes.
five minutes of exploration doesn't count the same as five minutes of combat if you just set a course and put your feet up till you're there.

Have to disagree about the click desto then wait.....dont you remember that you have to avoid the communist clouds ALL OVER THE PLACE?!
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2018, 12:13:36 PM »

I'm reserving my complaints for 0.9.1, because this is clearly a first-pass on the economy and vanilla star systems are clearly not balanced yet. But I feel like I have a glimpse of the design intent behind the unstable existing economy; the sector should be headed for ruin in the absence of the player's intervention. And I think that's good design, but some of the larger, more stable worlds should clearly have larger stocks and be harder to knock for a loop with a prate raid.

Global modifications to tariffs and soft-TC mods that adjust the system generation, market and planet composition of vanilla as well as making trading more viable by messing with Pirate and Pather base spawns seem like the best way to argue this. Trade is monotonous, but if people want monotonous play I can't see it being terribly difficult to give it to them with a little light modding.

...the communist clouds ALL OVER THE PLACE?!

PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS

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Lopunny Zen

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2018, 12:20:26 PM »

I get that but what does not help it is the communist clouds all over the place robbing you of your resources and making it even harder and less fun to progress. I thnk I spent like 1 million in ressources from those clouds hitting me alone and I have been avoiding them.

The biggest problem is the planets cant support themselves so I hope that gets fixed. Also your colonies cant seem to make reasonable fleets to stave the pirates on their own which them being around also hurt the economy or the raid fleets from people that are friendly with you
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Megas

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2018, 12:21:18 PM »

But I feel like I have a glimpse of the design intent behind the unstable existing economy; the sector should be headed for ruin in the absence of the player's intervention.
But if you intervene, Diktat and League want to kill you over it.  You build a new nation that puts the whole sector to shame, and everyone wants to set it on fire.

Due to emergent gameplay, this is the reason why the Sector is falling into ruin.  The powers that be wants this unrest and try to murder everyone that wants to solve the problem.  Probably explains why there are so many ruins out in the fringe.  People like you before you had their colonies targeted by Diktat and League too much, or they got sick of constant pirate/pather whack-a-mole that they gave up and let their colony die (EDIT: or they were too dumb and built their ex-colony on high hazard planet just because it was class V and had great resources... or not).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 12:23:53 PM by Megas »
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TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2018, 01:31:16 AM »

Counterpoint: why should trade be incentivized as compared to smuggling. Smuggling: also requires freighters, also carries risk of pirates. However, it also adds needing to dodge the sensors of non-hostile faction fleets at the risk of having goods impounded, or requires going to pirate bases directly for more profits. IE its trading, but more involved with core game systems, requires more player input, and carries a greater risk.

Why do you think the game needs artificial incentives or punishments?
Smuggling is more profitable than normal trade, since you avoid tarrifs. That's the incentive right there.

And again, why force a player to play a specific way IN A SANDBOX???


Quote
The game being 95% a combat game, with nearly every mechanic leading back to combat. Starsector has truly excellent combat and cool warship design: if players aren't doing that, they aren't playing a very good game. Why use SS to trade instead of another game that is dedicated to making trading a fun time?

Because you want to.
And because the combat is always there.
You keep looking at this in isolation. This is a sandbox. I can bulk trade. I can fight. I can do BOTH (shocking, I know!).
What's the point of having those bulk freighters available for sale if the palyer cannot utilize them properly? You might as well remove them and have them as AI only.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2018, 02:35:40 AM »

Have to disagree about the click desto then wait.....dont you remember that you have to avoid the communist clouds ALL OVER THE PLACE?!

Nobody has any idea what you are talking about most of the time. I suggest you say exactly what you mean without trying to use metaphors, similes, or analogy. I have no idea what the communist cloud is. You are failing to be articulate.  If you're going to talk in this thread about some random, offtopic thing in the game that annoys you, at least do it in a more clear way (like I do), but preferably remain on topic.

I'm reserving my complaints for 0.9.1, because this is clearly a first-pass on the economy...

It's like the 5th pass of the economy.

Global modifications to tariffs and soft-TC mods that adjust the system generation, market and planet composition of vanilla as well as making trading more viable by messing with Pirate and Pather base spawns seem like the best way to argue this. Trade is monotonous, but if people want monotonous play I can't see it being terribly difficult to give it to them with a little light modding.

You're probably right about the modding being the best solution.

 As I've said many times, trade isn't any more or less monotonous than other game-play like combat. It just appeals to a different set of pathologies than the ones combat appeals to. This is a community of self selected people willing to pay to alpha test a game that was only combat at the beginning. I'm not sure they're any longer the most representative playtesters for what will make a good game.

Overall, a good trade system just adds to the variety of the game and gives you more things to do -- and it also potentially stimulates new and different types of combats.

But if you intervene, Diktat and League want to kill you over it.  You build a new nation that puts the whole sector to shame, and everyone wants to set it on fire.
Athens after the Persian War
Rome
Spanish Empire
British Empire
Postwar America
etc

Every hegemonic power encounters this problem. I applaud Alex for (perhaps accidentally) making a game for adults with some kind of realistic power dynamics that deflates the ridiculous utopian individualist fantasies. You cannot just build something big and be left alone. If you have something good, people will want it and take it if you can't defend it. If you can defend it, you'll have to do some dubious things in the name of stability, and people will resent it and scheme against you.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2018, 08:41:48 AM »

I'm reserving my complaints for 0.9.1, because this is clearly a first-pass on the economy...

It's like the 5th pass of the economy.
He pretty clearly meant this is a first pass on the economic system. Any work to balance/improve the previous economic systems doesn't apply to the current one because this system is so different.


As I've said many times, trade isn't any more or less monotonous than other game-play like combat. It just appeals to a different set of pathologies than the ones combat appeals to.
I disagree that trade is as monotonous as combat. Monotony is about lack of variety and repetition. There is much more variety in combat because there are so many decisions to be made in order to be successful at combat. Out-fitting your ship and fleet, deploying and ordering ships around, choosing fights to take and avoid, actually piloting a ship which requires constant decision making and lots of skill-based interactions, all of these things require the player to be making decisions and performing skilled actions. There's many different ways to approach all of those decisions meaning you don't have to approach combat in the same way each time and there's so many different ways all the variables can be combined (using different weapons and ships vs the same enemy fleet will result in a different experience and vice versa, piloting your ship differently will result in a different experience). There's just much less nuance/variety in trade. Look where the goods are sold cheaply. Go there and buy as much as you can. Look at where the goods are in demand. Go there and sell all the goods. Rinse and Repeat. There's very little decision making and no skill based actions. You just repeat the same sequence of 4-5 simple actions and profit. Sure you have to avoid threats on your way between planets, but you have to do that no matter what actions you are taking, that's not inherent to trade.

I have no issues with people who enjoy that sort of gameplay, and I would like trade to be more viable in the game, but claiming that combat is as monotonous doesn't make sense to me.
I also agree that the group of people play testing are not representative of a broader audience, and that needs to be taken into account.


Every hegemonic power encounters this problem. I applaud Alex for (perhaps accidentally) making a game for adults with some kind of realistic power dynamics that deflates the ridiculous utopian individualist fantasies. You cannot just build something big and be left alone. If you have something good, people will want it and take it if you can't defend it. If you can defend it, you'll have to do some dubious things in the name of stability, and people will resent it and scheme against you.
I agree this is kind of cool but I think the game either needs to double down on the idea that the player faction is superpower, or prevent the player from becoming that powerful, at least so easily. If the player outproduces every other faction in the sector, they should have the diplomatic status and options of a superpower. If alex doesn't want to give the player that sort of power, he should prevent them from becoming powerful enough that that would make sense, probably by making the AI factions insurmountably powerful (so the player never reaches a level where they feel like they are more powerful that the AI and deserve to be recognized). As long as the players treatment in game is consistent with their status in the economy, I am happy.
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Megas

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2018, 12:07:25 PM »

Athens after the Persian War
Rome
Spanish Empire
British Empire
Postwar America
etc

Every hegemonic power encounters this problem. I applaud Alex for (perhaps accidentally) making a game for adults with some kind of realistic power dynamics that deflates the ridiculous utopian individualist fantasies. You cannot just build something big and be left alone. If you have something good, people will want it and take it if you can't defend it. If you can defend it, you'll have to do some dubious things in the name of stability, and people will resent it and scheme against you.
The hegemonic powers you speak of apply to most of the major factions, not your faction, until you get much bigger during endgame, but... they keep sending more of the same expeditions at you whether you are a size 10 giant with everything or a size 3 outpost that just built a tech mine.  The powers treat the player differently than other factions.  They probably should outright declare war like they do again other factions, not send expeditions only at me, but not at other factions... or at any of the pirate and pather bases to solve their problem before some of their colonies decivilize due to repeated successful pirate raids.  If they can send a fleet or more at my size 3 tech mine, they can sure send one at a pirate or pather base that is a more immediate threat (after bounties expire).  My base may shave a few credits of their bottom line.  Pirates and pathers do more than that with pirate activity then raids if not stopped, or pathers disrupting something.

The original point of my initial post was that the reason the sector is falling apart is because major factions WANT the sector to fall apart and torment humanity for fun like twisted demons, and most of them try to assassinate anyone (namely you) that finds a better way (and fix the problem) and starts to succeed at it.

Quote
If alex doesn't want to give the player that sort of power, he should prevent them from becoming powerful enough that that would make sense, probably by making the AI factions insurmountably powerful (so the player never reaches a level where they feel like they are more powerful that the AI and deserve to be recognized).
If player becoming superpower is not an option, then killing markets until they disappear and there are no superpowers left seems like the way to go.

Those major factions should stockpile resources so that spaceport headshot raid cannot send market to zero stability in one action.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2018, 12:14:36 PM »

Raiding spaceports in general seems a bit too impactful, maybe that should be toned down.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2018, 07:35:52 AM »

What's the point of having those bulk freighters available for sale if the palyer cannot utilize them properly? You might as well remove them and have them as AI only.
They're for carrying loot. The reason you have freighters in your fleets is so you have somewhere to store the stuff you get from fighting and exploring. The reason you want bigger freighters is because you have a hard limit on number of ships, so bigger freighters let you pack more combat ships into the same fleet at the same cargo space than lots of small freighters.
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Megas

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2018, 09:56:26 AM »

What's the point of having those bulk freighters available for sale if the palyer cannot utilize them properly? You might as well remove them and have them as AI only.
They're for carrying loot. The reason you have freighters in your fleets is so you have somewhere to store the stuff you get from fighting and exploring. The reason you want bigger freighters is because you have a hard limit on number of ships, so bigger freighters let you pack more combat ships into the same fleet at the same cargo space than lots of small freighters.
They are also handy for hauling lots of stuff you need to build a few colonies somewhere.
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TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2018, 10:54:07 AM »

Every hegemonic power encounters this problem. I applaud Alex for (perhaps accidentally) making a game for adults with some kind of realistic power dynamics that deflates the ridiculous utopian individualist fantasies. You cannot just build something big and be left alone. If you have something good, people will want it and take it if you can't defend it. If you can defend it, you'll have to do some dubious things in the name of stability, and people will resent it and scheme against you.

Realistic power dynamics?



What is realistic about a freelancer guy creating a interstellar empire over night?
What is realistic about superpowers even letting you field powerful starships (each of which is a WMD in it's own right)?
What is realistic about a single new colony out-producing half the galaxy?
What is realistic about all superpowers acting exactly the same?

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TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2018, 10:59:27 AM »

What's the point of having those bulk freighters available for sale if the palyer cannot utilize them properly? You might as well remove them and have them as AI only.
They're for carrying loot. The reason you have freighters in your fleets is so you have somewhere to store the stuff you get from fighting and exploring. The reason you want bigger freighters is because you have a hard limit on number of ships, so bigger freighters let you pack more combat ships into the same fleet at the same cargo space than lots of small freighters.

In other words, for everything except their actual main purpose?
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