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Author Topic: Increase planetary stocks  (Read 11183 times)

TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2018, 02:17:29 AM »

Part of the reason I have all my colonies spread around the galaxy is so I can easily restock. Either by taking stuff directly out of stockpiles, or by using a glitch where if you close the trading window and reopen it the inventory resets.

But as to why things work the way they do currently, I think part of the reason is that the game doesn't calculate price per unit of a good, but instead just sets the price for all units you purchase at the initial price (total cost=Amount of goodXcurrent price). For example if I use the aforementioned glitch to reset shop inventory as I'm buying fuel (and I'll be purchasing it in batches of 3k units), the price increases from ~$24 a unit to $30 and eventually $35 as the total planetary stockpile is gradually depleted from my sales. The way price calculation works currently, if the total planetary stockpile was available for sale in the open market (Not from the stockpile, that works differently), then I could purchase all 9k units of fuel for ~$24 a unit, which doesn't really work. If you allowed players access to a planet's entire stock of an item then the buying calculation would need to calculate how much something costs as you buy or sell more units, which is doable but probably annoying to work out the programming logic for.
The current surplus/demand system allows for higher/lower price for an amount of units (example 500) but to do changing costs depending on how much you're buying versus the planet's stocks the game would need to calculate the breakpoints at which buying one additional unit causes the price to increase by at least 1 credit, and then work out your total cost to buy based on these brackets of unit prices.

A simple solution to his would be the one that exist in RL - you simply cannot buy the entire stock. Planets would keep strategic reserves.
If Jangala produces 50000 units of fuel, and the planet and hegemony needs 25000 of those, hen 25000 would be available for purchase.

Also, the actual mah calculations for what you're talking about are rather simple.
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TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2018, 02:21:30 AM »

If one atlas his required to supply a size 6 world, then the means 10000 atlases are required to supply a size 10 world. There certainly don't seem to be 10000 atlases flying in and out of size 10 worlds so it's reasonable to assume that one atlas is more than enough for a size 6 colony.

No, it's not reasonable to assume that.
It's a game. Is every singe shuttle flying simulated? Nope. Doesn't have to be.

And atlases certainly aren't big enough for that. SS ships seem to be similar in size or somewhat bigger than current sea ships. Looking at crew numbers, sprites and everything, even 1km length for the biggest ships seems unlikely.
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Baxter

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2018, 02:53:19 AM »

A simple solution to his would be the one that exist in RL - you simply cannot buy the entire stock. Planets would keep strategic reserves.
If Jangala produces 50000 units of fuel, and the planet and hegemony needs 25000 of those, hen 25000 would be available for purchase.

Also, the actual mah calculations for what you're talking about are rather simple.

Yeah after a bit of thinking I realized that there was a simpler way to calculate it. I mean, I can see how it'd be done I'm just not sure what the actual equation would be.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2018, 08:21:18 AM »

And atlases certainly aren't big enough for that. SS ships seem to be similar in size or somewhat bigger than current sea ships.

There's no scale of reference anywhere in the game. There's also no reason why those ships would have the same crew requirements as an earth sea ship, considering the level of AI/automation that exists in the universe. Also it's not even clear that 1 'crew' is one person, it could refer to a group of people in the same way that all the other commodities are abstracted so that it's not clear exactly how much material is represented by 1 unit.

It pretty obvious that one unit of cargo is much more than one ton, because the atlas can hold 2000 units of cargo, and an earth sea freighter can hold well over 100000 tons of cargo, so clearly one unit must represent a lot more than one ton.

Basically everything is abstracted so that there is no scale of reference and thus no 'realism' argument can be made about how much things 'should' be able to carry.
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TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2018, 11:03:06 AM »

There's no scale of reference anywhere in the game.

Hangars and what seems to be command towers.


Quote
Also it's not even clear that 1 'crew' is one person, it could refer to a group of people in the same way that all the other commodities are abstracted so that it's not clear exactly how much material is represented by 1 unit.

So fighters have a dozen pilots then?

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Basically everything is abstracted so that there is no scale of reference and thus no 'realism' argument can be made about how much things 'should' be able to carry.

Wrong. A freighter should be able to fill it's  holds at a planet. Period.
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Linnis

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2018, 11:30:33 AM »

One problem if scale is seriously considered is that markets will have insane production of hundreds of ships a month to be in proportion. Then is a cascade of everything needs to be adjusted to scale like size 6 markets will have 1000x more stuff then size 3 markets(planets) were suddenly smaller markets dont even matter and might as well not exist.
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Thaago

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2018, 12:07:29 PM »

...
Quote
Basically everything is abstracted so that there is no scale of reference and thus no 'realism' argument can be made about how much things 'should' be able to carry.

Wrong. A freighter should be able to fill it's  holds at a planet. Period.

Why? From a game design perspective, what is the benefit to SS of allowing large bulk trading at will? Is bulk trading expected to be a fun activity that allows for player choice, risk management, and combat?

I think it could be if the game was upfront about making huge buys attracting the interest of pirate or 'black ops' fleets of other factions. As long as the player was informed, I can see specific large gank fleets going after the player, which the player then needs to either fight or avoid. Or faction patrol fleets below a certain rep level will seize your goods due to greed/corruption/laws about mass transport. Perhaps ones that spawn near jump points or en route in hyperspace? The AI is a little bit at a disadvantage as it doesn't know where the player is going, but this can be overcome with cheating.

From a realism perspective... oh wait, you can think of a realism argument for or against literally anything because this is a far future sci fi setting. Setting/backstory/lore supports game design, always.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 02:15:47 PM by Thaago »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2018, 01:51:42 PM »

Wrong. A freighter should be able to fill it's  holds at a planet. Period.

This is not true, its not how it works on earth and it's not required to be in a game. If you own a huge sea freighter and show up at a port, no one will have stuff to fill it. You have to have pre arranged deals/contracts so that producers know how much stuff to make and where/when they need to have it available. Thats how the economy works. All large scale freight transportation vehicles are owned by freight shipping companies that have long term contracts with suppliers to move goods from production facilities to retailers where they are sold in small quantities to consumers on demand. You don't show up unannounced and fill your ship with 200000 tons of goods conveniently sitting in a warehouse, wire transfer a couple million to someone and leave. No one makes 200000 tons of a product without knowing who will be buying it. Production takes a lot of time and money so it only happens if the demand is pre-established and the buyer is known and has demonstrated the ability and desire to pay for the products before they are made.

Maybe it makes for interesting gameplay to have tons of goods sitting around waiting to be bought and sold, but there's no realism argument to be made.
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JustALittleGravitas

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2018, 07:49:40 PM »

Wrong. A freighter should be able to fill it's  holds at a planet. Period.

This is not true, its not how it works on earth and it's not required to be in a game. If you own a huge sea freighter and show up at a port, no one will have stuff to fill it. You have to have pre arranged deals/contracts so that producers know how much stuff to make and where/when they need to have it available. Thats how the economy works. All large scale freight transportation vehicles are owned by freight shipping companies that have long term contracts with suppliers to move goods from production facilities to retailers where they are sold in small quantities to consumers on demand. You don't show up unannounced and fill your ship with 200000 tons of goods conveniently sitting in a warehouse, wire transfer a couple million to someone and leave. No one makes 200000 tons of a product without knowing who will be buying it. Production takes a lot of time and money so it only happens if the demand is pre-established and the buyer is known and has demonstrated the ability and desire to pay for the products before they are made.

Maybe it makes for interesting gameplay to have tons of goods sitting around waiting to be bought and sold, but there's no realism argument to be made.
[/quote]

it doesn't work that way now because global communication means I can get on Ali Baba and make and order today.  But before global order systems (which the game lacks), that's exactly how it worked.  You sailed a ship into canton full of wool silver and a couple opium chests, and then you found somebody selling a shipload of silk and porcelain.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2018, 10:11:48 PM »

Presumably communication and economic theory are more advanced in the future so I don't see why suppliers would make goods on the scale of planetary demand without having a buyer and just hope that someone shows up to buy the stuff. The game has established that the economy is supply/demand driven which is much more similar to modern capitalism than the mercantilism you are referring to. It just doesn't make economic sense to make huge surpluses if you have a good idea of what the demand actually is. Since the player has access to information like global demand and market share in the colony screen, it's safe to assume that any supplier would have that information and that they would produce to fill that demand.
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Lopunny Zen

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2018, 04:25:17 PM »

Well I mean you are wrong. As an entrepreneur even I have a huge storage or a big bank account for crisis situations and *** hits the fan for a bit. The low supply amounts means that  you take hits a lot harder AND have to endure losing so much money while people cuddle up and try to feel safe again. Not to mention that the other people were right. I NEVER saw a fleet bigger then a patrol because the supplies were so dim and when *** hit the fan I went from making 100-250k credits to having to spend 150k credits in the snap despite the planet being well defended and have a battlestation. It would help if you didnt have to trade with others with the commerce center so you can build yourself up first while making a little bit of money on the side until you feel you are ready for the extra money. The point it if the storage is small there does not seem to be an easy way to alleviate the crisis at all and the money you gained becomes as red as communism.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2018, 01:51:55 AM »

We are living in an era of profound stability globally. Also most of us posting here are familiar with economic transactions only as consumers, not bulk commodity traders.

And the sector is supposed to be an anarchic and unpredictable place. It would make sense that bigger stockpiles are kept around, to cushion against the constant crises, unexpected deaths of buyers, loss of fleets, etc.

Why? From a game design perspective, what is the benefit to SS of allowing large bulk trading at will? Is bulk trading expected to be a fun activity that allows for player choice, risk management, and combat?

Starsector is bit overthought. The designers think a lot about trying to steer the player into a certain direction because it's "more fun." I like that they put so much thought into things, but in fact the result is a more uniform play experience. Combat is always the same. It's always two war fleets fighting each other voluntarily almost. In fact, if bulk trade was allowed, it creates a lot of interesting gameplay possibilities as I discuss here: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=14324.msg237319#msg237319

Basically, if you had bulk trade, you might have more combats that weren't just two fleets of warships fighting each other. You could have more Battle of the Atlantic style convoy defense combats.
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TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2018, 02:54:42 AM »

One problem if scale is seriously considered is that markets will have insane production of hundreds of ships a month to be in proportion. Then is a cascade of everything needs to be adjusted to scale like size 6 markets will have 1000x more stuff then size 3 markets(planets) were suddenly smaller markets dont even matter and might as well not exist.

Not necessarily.
As established, spaceships are expensive and slow to build. It's not like every nations has a fleet of nuclear aircraft carrier, now do they? And spaceships are going to be much, MUHC more demanding piece of machienery.

But the point you bring up as a point of realism - a tiny villages market really is tiny compared to a big city - though the types of goods and prices are different.
Fresh organic fruit might be very expensive in a city, but cheap on the village.
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TrashMan

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2018, 03:09:00 AM »

Why? From a game design perspective, what is the benefit to SS of allowing large bulk trading at will? Is bulk trading expected to be a fun activity that allows for player choice, risk management, and combat?

Is Big Truck Simluator a fun game? Is fishing a fun game? Chess?
Please stop trying to impose your idea of what is FUN onto others.
If people didn't like trading then manager games or trading games wouldn't exist.

Player choice? You choose to trade!
Risk? You have a freighter, not a combat fleet. Pirates are a big risk.
Combat? Who sez you have to always fight?

Quote
From a realism perspective... oh wait, you can think of a realism argument for or against literally anything because this is a far future sci fi setting. Setting/backstory/lore supports game design, always.

I find that "common sense" and "general human behavior" is a better argument than any technical mumbo-jumbo. People trade. Lots of good exist. Lots of good needs moving.
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Thaago

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Re: Increase planetary stocks
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2018, 08:30:35 AM »

And note that those games are dedicated to trading/resource management. There isn't a Mad Max road combat piracy mode in Big Truck Simulator.

The whole point of being a game developer is imposing your vision of fun on others, because every game is a set of restrictive rules. Wanting everything in a game usually leads to a *** game. Exceptions exist, but not many.

...

Player choice? You choose to trade!
Risk? You have a freighter, not a combat fleet. Pirates are a big risk.


[Edit: Also, note that in the paragraph below the one you quoted I put forth reasons why bulk trading could be fun :P. But now I've changed my mind a bit.]

Sure, thats fine. Counterpoint: why should trade be incentivized as compared to smuggling. Smuggling: also requires freighters, also carries risk of pirates. However, it also adds needing to dodge the sensors of non-hostile faction fleets at the risk of having goods impounded, or requires going to pirate bases directly for more profits. IE its trading, but more involved with core game systems, requires more player input, and carries a greater risk.

Quote
Combat? Who sez you have to always fight?
The game being 95% a combat game, with nearly every mechanic leading back to combat. Starsector has truly excellent combat and cool warship design: if players aren't doing that, they aren't playing a very good game. Why use SS to trade instead of another game that is dedicated to making trading a fun time?

...

I find that "common sense" and "general human behavior" is a better argument than any technical mumbo-jumbo. People trade. Lots of good exist. Lots of good needs moving.

This I agree with, though I'd call it "internal consistency" - we see lots of trade fleets, so goods should be available (within reason). I find that the current high tariff + missions + smuggling is pretty good in terms of incentives, though it can always use tweaking as things change.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 08:33:39 AM by Thaago »
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