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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Anubis-class Cruiser (12/20/24)

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Author Topic: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling  (Read 6682 times)

Wyvern

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0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« on: November 27, 2018, 02:48:18 PM »

So, I'll start with the big point.
I've discussed before how I don't like the way skills are split between personal combat ability & fleet-wide buffs and logistics bonuses.  It feels bad to take skills that only affect your flagship, because you're missing out on all those fleet-wide bonuses that only you can take; and it simultaneously feels bad to focus on the fleet-wide skills and end up with officers that have stronger combat bonuses than you are.  (Yes, I know: both paths are viable.  But so is a no-skills run through the game.  Yes, I know, player combat skills have the multiplying effect of the player being able to play more aggressively than the AI can.  None of that changes the fact that it feels bad.)

This has gotten worse in 0.9.  (Side-note: In my opinion.  This whole thing is an opinion piece; when I say "X is true", please assume I mean "X is true for me" - I'm not going to add that disclaimer to every single statement in here, but it's an important disclaimer.  Other people will have other experiences.)

Why do I feel that way?
Spoiler
[REDACTED] Battleships.

When I first found a red-warning system, the fleets in it were about how I remembered them - with the addition of an occasional fleet with one of the new battleships at its head.  After a few experiments, I learned to just avoid those fleets; I could take them out, but it always ended up costing me more than I gained; I was lucky if I got out of that fight with both of my odysseys intact, and the odds of getting AI cores (of any sort, let alone the actually-useful beta or alpha cores) was low.  ...And then the fleets scaled up.  Now when I go into that system, it's a rare fleet that doesn't have -two- battleships in it.  For a while, I just avoided red-warning systems entirely.

Much later, I got the blueprints for the Paragon.  I had, by that point, a few million credits I could safely burn, so I decided to try an experiment.  I requisitioned four paragons (...For some reason the game wouldn't let me put more than two paragons in the queue at a time?), cranked battle size to the max, backed them with a pile of assorted carriers, and headed out.
The carriers, it turned out, were useless in battle - fighters sent into the massed firepower of a [REDACTED] fleet just... melted.  But their presence meant I got enough of the deployment point share to field all four paragons at once.  And -that- got the job done.

But here's the problem: The AI is actually better than I am at flying a paragon in this sort of battle.  It's better at using an omni shield to absorb specific attacks.  It's better at flipping fortress shield on just long enough to absorb a spike in the incoming damage.  It's -much- better at knowing when to turn shields -off- to avoid overloading.  In short: The AI is very good at playing it safe, and that's exactly what this sort of fight needs.  Any player ship I bring in inevitably ends up overextended - and with the amount of firepower the [REDACTED] fleets can bring to bear, it's pretty much make one small mistake and you're dead.
Now, the battles aren't completely non-interactive;  sometimes I have to set escort orders to make sure none of the paragons end up completely unsupported by their fellows.  Sometimes I have to take manual control of a paragon when a heavily wounded [REDACTED] battleship gets itself backed into a corner and my officers won't pursue them.  But by and large, for this sort of battle, I'd be better off if I'd skipped combat skills entirely and focused everything on leadership and support skills.  This... doesn't feel good.  And it's not -just- fights against [REDACTED] that work out like this; they're just the worst offender.  Taking on a Luddic Path station isn't quite as bad - I -can- be useful here - but it's a very similar feel of having to play very defensively, which, yes, the AI is generally -still- better at than I am.

Addendum: I think I'd actually prefer to make expeditions to an orange warning level system than a red one.  But in my current game, I haven't found -any- of the tier two [REDACTED] systems, and there are a pair of tier three ones right near my main colony.  So far, my quad-paragon expeditions have netted me one alpha and one beta core, so they -do- still drop.  Just not very often.
[close]

* * * Other Points * * *

1: Expedition fleets start out too large.  In my case, I had a pirate raid incoming at my fresh size 3 colony; yes, in retrospect, I could probably have stood up the defenses a bit faster... but I -did- start building a starbase before I got warning of the raid, and it -still- wasn't going to be online in time to help defend.  The patrol base got online in time... and promptly generated a patrol fleet with a destroyer and a frigate.  Not much help when the -first- pirate fleet had about eight cruisers; just pirate colossi, but compared to my one apogee and assorted destroyers... I was hopelessly outmatched.  After much save scumming and more than a bit of luck, I managed to separate off and eliminate the smaller -second- pirate fleet - and for some reason that triggered a notice that the pirate raid had failed, and that first completely-overwhelming fleet promptly turned around and went away.

2: By contrast, I found the price ramp on bribing off expeditions to be reasonable; after my bad experiences with the pirate raid (incidentally, once I had the starbase up and running, the pirates never launched a raid again), I just paid off every expedition the major factions tried to send.  Nowadays I get notice that my defenses should overwhelm the expeditions... but I still buy them off; why should I put my people's lives at risk when I do, in fact, have the credits available to go for bribes instead?

3: Speaking of expeditions, I'm very glad I read on the forum about how the Hegemony's AI inspections worked.  Given the rarity of useful AI cores, bribing them becomes the obvious solution.  After the first one of these launched, I stopped using alpha-grade AIs, figuring that they wouldn't inspect if I used beta-grade or lower.  It's possible that that decision reduced the odds of an inspection... but it turned out not to completely stop them, so I've gone back to slotting alphas into my industries.  (Honestly, I'd -like- to have some cleverer options; for example, pulling off alpha/beta cores and putting up a bunch of sacrificial gamma cores that I don't mind if they take.  But from how I read the warning text, that probably won't work... and I see no reason to take the risk when I can just bribe them and be done with it.)

4: Gamma-grade AI cores don't seem to be useful, except in one instance: assigning one to the base population of a newly-started colony to reduce the amount of resources you need to have stockpiled to avoid shortages while the initial starport builds.  There are probably some other corner cases - particularly if you take a commission or otherwise end up at war with some of the factions - but for my colonies, in my current game, I need beta-grade or higher to get any benefit once the initial starport is up.

5: Speaking of starports: is there any reason to -not- build one?  I'd be tempted to increase the resource cost of starting a colony (say, 300 supplies and 200 food), give it a 15-day delay before you can do anything with it, and then just skip directly to "You've got a functioning starport that allows basic imports", with a side-order of "To increase accessibility, build a waystation & then upgrade that to a megaport."  (Or maybe build a megaport and then upgrade that to a waystation?)

6: Luddic Path cells tend to be annoyingly far away, especially when they 're-establish support' after you blew up the closest base.  Thanks to the intel screen I can actually -find- them... but if that's going away for 9.1, there needs to be some option to take its place.  Also, I was expecting that my patrol fleets would have a chance of intercepting pather supply convoys, but that doesn't seem to be the case?  ...Maybe because I can't set a 'transponder required' tag for my systems?  Not that I ever see, say, hegemony patrols going after a transponder-off smuggler fleet...

7: Pirates, by contrast, tend to pretty predictably spawn their stations in nearby systems.  In fact, for me, it's been the -same- nearby system every time.  Well - same two nearby systems; I have colonies in two different places, now.  Amusingly, the favored pirate spawn point for one of those is in a neutron star system.  For some reason that pirate base never has supporting fleets when I come by to blow it up...

8: Station fights are interesting.  However, the AI doesn't always seem to understand that the station core is there; it won't try to shoot through the central core, but it will try to shoot through, say, the three indestructible spoke-y bits of a low-tech station, and it will (sometimes) try to -fly- through that central core.  Odysseys in particular have collision issues with stations (largely as a result of their mobility system), but I've seen a doom bounce off the central core as well.

9: The new plasma cannons are great!  I am very pleased to be able to put a plasma cannon on a sunder again, and not have it be a terrible useless fail of an idea.

10: The new needlers are... not so great.  They need their flux efficiency back; without that they're not worth the premium ordnance point cost.  Needlers - both light and heavy, but not storm - were one of my mainstay weapons in previous versions.  Now, every time I've considered using them, I've had to conclude that I'd be better off with something else.

11: We could really use a range 800 medium ballistic HE weapon, to pair up with heavy autocannons or heavy needlers.  Right now I tend to end up with arbalests on my hammerheads, just because that makes the range bands match up better.  (Well, that, and arbalests are flux-efficient, now.  But the range thing is generally the deciding point.)

12: I have yet to find a case where I actually want to install the new Converted Hangar on a ship.  Anyone have any examples of variants that make good use of this?
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Alex

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2018, 02:57:05 PM »

*thumbs up*

Could you possibly email me your save with the 4 Paragons, if you've got one handy? I'd really like to take a look at how it feels to fight the bigger REDACTED fleets with it.

(fractalsoftworks [at] gmail [dot] com)
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Wyvern

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 03:02:42 PM »

Could you possibly email me your save with the 4 Paragons, if you've got one handy? I'd really like to take a look at how it feels to fight the bigger REDACTED fleets with it.
I'll get that sent off this evening - not currently at the machine I play Starsector on.
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Alex

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 03:04:22 PM »

Alright, thank you - looking forward to checking it out.
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Megas

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 03:08:10 PM »

Nice post.  I plan to write one soon myself.

In my game, I have very few red systems, but plenty of yellow and orange.

Re: Spaceport.
You need one to build a waystation and to repair your ships.  But... I have removed them for time to time when I want to freeze population growth at 3.  I do not want a waystation colony to grow to size 4 and be unable to abandon it anymore.  There needs to be an easy way to freeze growth without removing spaceport.

Agreed with needlers.  I pass on light needlers on my OP starved ships when railgun does everything I need better.  Light Needlers might combo better with Phase Lance or Hellbore, otherwise, I just want a steady stream of suppression until enemy drops the shields.  Light Needler as it is may be worth 8 OP at best.  (I probably would put it at 7 OP, same as Railgun).  Light Needler and Railgun are too similar, with Railgun being the cheaper and, in my opinion, the better of the two guns.  As for Heavy Needler, efficiency was the main reason to take it, usually on the Legion.

Agreed on 800 range HE weapon.  Before, Heavy Mauler would have sufficed, but with the DPS cut, it is merely the HE version of HVD, minus the accuracy, and it is rare (unless you get blueprint), HE is nothing but Mortars, and I usually pair Mortars with Arbalest.

Despite weakened fighters (I plan to post a new fighters vs. big ships for 0.9 topic soon), Converted Hangar may be useful on ships that otherwise have no chance to force fights against small ships.  It has been handy on Apogee.  Again, think of fighters as a Salamander substitute.
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SafariJohn

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 04:38:18 PM »

I just took a Legion XIV, Astral, 5 cruisers, and some destroyers (my char is lvl 44 Combat/Tech - no EW; and I have 4 lvl 20 officers) into a red system and fighting the Remnant fleets was a waste of time. I got one alpha core... by looting some ruins on a planet. No beta cores. I also got a Synchrotron off a mining station, then picked up a Pristine Nanoforge from the debris field.

I blew up at least one battleship, and maybe got a gamma core off it. Saw the bigger fleets, including a 2 BB, 6 cruiser fleet which stood down at the Nexus and was instantly replaced by an identical fleet. Just turned the other way; why bother fighting them? Also tested luring off the fleets and attacking the Nexus solo - it was way too powerful to even make a dent in.

What I've learned - don't waste time fighting Remnants this version. Just sneak around their systems and loot the derelicts and stuff. Which is easy because I have all the Technology skills and Remnants don't E-Burn anyways.
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Megas

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 04:57:07 PM »

I need to try my hand at red Remnant systems.  (There is one such handy system near my second colony.)  I just got a Paragon blueprint (thanks Tri-Tachyon stealth raid), and I have the rest of the blueprints to make my favorite quad lance and dual HVD Paragon.  I just need to wait about several in-game months for my industry to crank those Paragons out, I waited over two in-game months for my first Paragon (to replace my Onslaught clunker as flagship) to roll off the assembly line.

I want to see if I can fry those Remnants, so I can get more chips and finish up those simulator tests with Remnant fighters.  Do not know if I want to kill the Nexus, because they are the golden geese.  I wish I could raid the Nexus for Remnant fighter (and other normal weapon) blueprints.

The Radiant is annoying.  The relatively mid-sized Remnant fleet guarding the red planet took out a little over a third of my fleet.  No problem, Reinforced Bulkheads plus guaranteed weapon recovery means I dust those clunkers off like revenants and they are back in action soon with yet another (D) mod.
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Reinhark

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 05:16:12 PM »

Them [ Redactated ] battle cruisers has defensive capability of Paragon+hardened shield but without fortress shield ability, Offensive capability of Paragon(less range, more weapons) and approximately 1.5 times mobility of Onslaught(rated high because they can retreat fast when needed. Some of them also spawn with unstable injector which makes them really fast.).


Should you wish to venture and fight against them, you have been warned. I've found that only way to fight them is to have overwhelming advantage to begin with.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2018, 05:29:46 PM »

I really like the challenge of the new remnant battleships, I managed to defeat the red planet fleet with a conquest and some cruisers, but I took some loses. If the AI core drop rate is as low as people say, then I agree that the rewards need to be increased to match the risk, but I like the addition of an actual end-game challenge.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 05:36:54 PM »

I really like the challenge of the new remnant battleships, I managed to defeat the red planet fleet with a conquest and some cruisers, but I took some loses. If the AI core drop rate is as low as people say, then I agree that the rewards need to be increased to match the risk, but I like the addition of an actual end-game challenge.
I'm pretty sure that it is a bug that Alex has seen and acknowledged that it will be fixed in .9.1
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Reinhark

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 05:50:35 PM »

I really like the challenge of the new remnant battleships, I managed to defeat the red planet fleet with a conquest and some cruisers, but I took some loses. If the AI core drop rate is as low as people say, then I agree that the rewards need to be increased to match the risk, but I like the addition of an actual end-game challenge.

I should add that drop rate of alpha is... I give 1 out of 8 red fleet. Which is approximately 12 battleship worthy fleets.
Beta is, approximately 1 out of 3.
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Dread Pirate Robots

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2018, 09:47:15 PM »

I'm definitely going to disagree with the notion that fighters don't work well against the remnant. I just took out two big red system fleets, one with 2 battleships and 5 cruisers and assorted destroyers/frigates, and the second with 3 battleships and 6 cruisers, using my mighty fleet consisting of.... 17 drovers and 1 sunder. Lost 1 drover against the second fleet, but recovered it.

I actually did pick up an alpha core off of the first fleet, which is the first alpha core I've picked up that wasn't from a ruin or station.
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Megas

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 10:09:30 AM »

Just tried my hand at a red system, and inch my way toward a likely class V desert planet.  First Remnant fleet in the way, no problem for my fleet (with four capitals and lots of cruisers, though Conquest was out of commission due to recent storm-ride).  A little after, second fleet, one with Radiant.  Some cruisers were killed (then recovered).  Next, three more fleets approaching and a fourth from the side.  Okay, I need to bring more capitals now, and three additional events that threatening my colony (pirate activity, reactivated pather cell, and League expedition... after my star fortress got knocked out after trying to auto-resolve the last invasion.)  I need to leave now!  I picked the fleet off to the side (for their fighter chips), and fled the system.  I will return with more of capitals to farm the place.
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Wyvern

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 10:20:30 AM »

I'm definitely going to disagree with the notion that fighters don't work well against the remnant.
I'm curious what fighters you were using?  Also, there's a significant difference between a huge pile of massed fighters, versus a couple of carriers trying to support some capital ships - I definitely believe that fighters worked for you; they just proved to be useless in the circumstances I was trying to use them in.
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DiM

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Re: 0.9 Impressions, Commentary, & Rambling
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 04:58:22 PM »

using my mighty fleet consisting of.... 17 drovers and 1 sunder. Lost 1 drover against the second fleet, but recovered it.
That made me chuckle :)
How do you outfit them ? Do you even bother with bombers, since they dont get the extra spawn from the ship ability?
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