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Author Topic: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun  (Read 46862 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2018, 10:36:35 PM »

What determines fleet str?  Is it just how much money you're making in the market?  Both my colonies do not have freeport on and run 0 AI cores, but it still makes me about 200k per cycle (depending on pather junk, which is a different issue).

I suspect fleet size/quality factors are exactly what fleet size/quality tooltips state, without any hidden extras. In terms of actual combat ability, your doctrine (with chosen blueprints/weapons) also matters of course.
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Alex

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2018, 10:37:34 PM »

I wouldn't like the idea that a positive rep with other factions made you immune to this danger. Because expeditions are a big part of the counterbalance to colony profits. Positive faction rep already makes the game easier, it doesn't need to negate half of the endgame threats too. It could increase the interval between expeditions, possibly.

To clarify, I agree with that, but factions you have a commission from seem like a reasonable exception, since that's limited to one faction.
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code99

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 12:23:59 AM »

I wouldn't like the idea that a positive rep with other factions made you immune to this danger. Because expeditions are a big part of the counterbalance to colony profits. Positive faction rep already makes the game easier, it doesn't need to negate half of the endgame threats too. It could increase the interval between expeditions, possibly.

To clarify, I agree with that, but factions you have a commission from seem like a reasonable exception, since that's limited to one faction.

I guess thats an acceptable compromise ... i still think that if you have max rep with someone, they shouldnt attack you as much at least, or bribing them should be less expensive? Or, something else.
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TrashMan

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2018, 02:13:09 AM »

What is needed - besides scaling down player colony growth and profits - is more diplomatic options and more thinking and consequences on the side of the AI.

The Hegemony might want to give me a hand if the Diktat hates my guts and is attacking my colony. Basically war trough proxies, that is so common in reality. Make hidden pacts an backroom deals.

Even things like "how about you scale down your heavy machinery production, in the interest of our good relations? We wouldn't want to nuke you. We'll throw in this blueprint in the offer adn some money." And then if you accept the deal, you get an active colony debuff (icon in the corner) that lasts for X long - which you can cancel at any time, but breakign the deal will greatly anger them and give them Casus Belli.

Speaking of which, fleets shouldn't appear out of thin air and losses of entire fleets should have an effect. At least in a simplified way, like a resource bar that fills up based on economy and other factors (like a militant faction mgiht have a boost) and depletes as ships/fleets are lost. And you need X of that bar to spawn a fleet of Y size.

Something simple - CP/deployment points for ships are already defined and can be used, just add the totals for the fleet value, and you have to have that many RU's (Resource Units) to spawn a fleet.
And every day/week, colonies would generate RU's depending on size and economy.

This means that a faction that suffers a string of losses will need soem time to rebuild their fleets.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 02:34:23 AM by TrashMan »
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XazoTak

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2018, 02:23:59 AM »

I built a colony on the edge of the sector, hoping it wouldn't be attacked and I could do heavy industry in peace. Only a few months old before a decent-rep faction decided that they weren't happy about my market share, so apparently the 30 lightyear distance doesn't matter one bit.
Colonies are insanely OP right now, but this solution is stupid.
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TaLaR

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2018, 02:26:11 AM »

Nothing and nobody cares about distance. That's annoying and unrealistic.
Then again, player can easily stack more accessibility in his far away colony than core worlds have.
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code99

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2018, 02:29:24 AM »

Nothing and nobody cares about distance. That's annoying and unrealistic.

Well, there goes my dream of creating a safe haven as far away as possible from the core worlds.
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Thana

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2018, 06:06:52 AM »

What determines fleet str?  Is it just how much money you're making in the market?  Both my colonies do not have freeport on and run 0 AI cores, but it still makes me about 200k per cycle (depending on pather junk, which is a different issue).

You can mouseover the fleet size percentage on your colony screen to see what goes into it, but in short, stability, fleet buildings and colony size are all very important factors when determining fleet sizes. Ship quality is improved by stability (making it a double-dipping factor, so very important!) and by improving heavy industry and adding a nanoforge to it.
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Reinhark

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2018, 07:06:49 AM »

I for one wish that I can start scrapping business.

I have perpetual war in my most successful star system with expedition forces from TT, Hegemony(both inspection and expedition) Persians and church which are outnumbered 2:1 to my defending forces on orbit.

At least 2 dozen capital-ship rank fleets are fighting. Constantly. If I can tap into this junk I would be very rich(er) man.
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Hessu

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2018, 07:16:00 AM »

I think the expedictions are fine except if you're commissioned. Think about it: You're a cheeseseller and you have this one good friend you love like a brother, but one day he creates a cheeseshop right next to your shop and starts to eat your profits. There is gonna be a war no matter how good buddies you are.

When i created my first colony it got steamrolled by expeditions. I couldn't fight them off so i just left the colony on its own and went to hunt bounties and trade for a couple of months. When i got some extracash i spend it on the defenses of the colony(keep in mind, you don't have to be in the colony to build stuff) and pretty quickly it became strong enough to fend off the attackers.

True enough if you make a colony as fast as possible it will become difficult because of the upkeep, but building a colony when you don't have an army and/or lots of cash is stupid anyways as it should be.

BTW when are we gonna be able to conquer other factions planets? Or are we already and i've missed it?
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Flet

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2018, 07:38:06 AM »

I dont really understand the rationale behind expeditions working the way they currently do at all anyway. Of course colonies being attacked is certainly a good mechanic, but for other factions to simply automatically do it with out repercussion seems extremely unrealistic. They have their reasons, of course, you being market competition, or doing something that annoys their set of morals is a reason for them to not like you or want to try and do something about this upstart colony/faction, but just sending open warfleets against you seems very badly thought out.

Id expect something like this:
1. Those fleets are costly for them to do
2. If you are commissioned you are a formal part of that faction, you pay a tax, but attacking you is attacking them, if they are at war they might even send some ships to help defend your colonies. Doing things that faction approves of does not bother them (making fuel if you are part of the SD is merely expanding their monopoly on fuel production, for example)
3. With open war being diplomatically inconvenient, people who do dislike your colony have other means to try and persuade you to stop, such as economic sanctions, sabotage, attempting to start a revolution, or taking advantage of natural disaster (a food shortage sees their operatives trading food to hungry civilians in exchange for electrical wiring and machinery, thus lowering your production output). Some people within your own faction may not like you and try to do this (someone in the SD not liking some upstart getting in on the fuel business, even though you are allowed to do so officially)
4. A set of diplomatic mechanics to try and gain favor with people in your faction/other factions.
5. If you are not commissioned you count as your own faction, and have diplomatic options to interact with others as such.
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speeder

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2018, 08:48:30 AM »

Also what expeditions do could be done in other manners...

For example siege: have factions attack traders or hire privateers... this had RL precedent AND the game already supports this anyway (you can do that yourself, if you interact with random ships the game tells you the economic consequences of killing them).

Other economic shenanigans (for example refusal to trade with you, causing the expected accessibility loss and thus decreasing your market share).

Evne for combat, dealing with privateers would be proably more fun than the constant meatgrinding on orbit of your colonies.


Also the markets need some balancing to not trigger market share attacks too soon. Right now you can with a single size 3 planet domiante a market... While AI have size 9 planets competing with you in a tiny market... Total market values should go way up, while size 3 planets shouldn't capture so much market share.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2018, 09:28:14 AM »

I rather like the current system.

After I settled my first colony and was receiving raids I had to stay around when they arrived and had some really fun battles next to my station. Even when the enemy brought multiple fleets of 30-40 ships I could defend very well since stations on your side is a huge bonus and a true gamechanger. Now that I have already 30m in the bank and don't want to stay chained to it I just let it defend itself and, while the stability has taken hits, it has yet to lose to a raid, and I have a station that have received over 10 "very strong" ones. The game more than enough provides tools for your stations to handle themselves so I really don't get how the expeditions are "unfair and unfun".
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Serenitis

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2018, 09:57:00 AM »

I just let it defend itself and, while the stability has taken hits, it has yet to lose to a raid

Congrats on being lucky I suppose.
I left my fortress world alone with a maxed station, ground defence, and miltary base. And plenty of patrol fleets with capships/carriers wandering about boosted by a nanoforge, and the Hegemony pitches up with an "evenly matched" fleet and proceeds to kick all my anthills over while I'm on the other side of sector and completely unable to do anything about it.

All I'm getting from this, is that I'm not allowed to leave this colony alone anymore.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2018, 10:49:07 AM »

Not lucky, just well equipped. All my colonies at this point sport an Alpha AI which provides 50% bonus to ground defenses. Your colony meanwhile seems to be lacking a
Spoiler
Planetary Shield.
[close]


I also hope that you've upgraded your Ground Defenses to Heavy Batteries and Military Base to High Command.

I'm on the other side of sector and completely unable to do anything about it.

All I'm getting from this, is that I'm not allowed to leave this colony alone anymore.

That's just false. You can time to go back to your station by the time the fleet arrives (usually a large fleet takes 100+ days to do so which is more than enough time, not to mention that you can also intercept the fleet) and, at least in my experience, most of the attacks I was receiving before the end game (which I had no further need to defend by myself) were not of the "very strong" kind which meant a fortress was enough to halt them.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 10:52:52 AM by Cyan Leader »
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