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Author Topic: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun  (Read 47188 times)

Megas

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2018, 05:59:58 PM »

Some notes:
* Unless player does trickery like removing spaceport from time to time, colony grow on a good planet is unavoidable.
* Just setting up Tech Mining on a planet with Vast Ruins WILL attract the expedition fleets from the Diktat at a minimum.  Too easy and no effort required to receive the pain.

It is too easy to attract killer invasion fleets if you do not know what you are doing, and I sure did not when I first played the 0.9a release.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 06:01:31 PM by Megas »
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Reinhark

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2018, 06:02:00 PM »

I for one wish game taught me what high Hazard rating will do to your wallet few ingame years down the line.
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Sutopia

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2018, 06:08:13 PM »

I feel like the underlined phrases contradict each other.

Not really. What I tried to say is people may refuse to get taught by SS but use their "knowledge" from some other similar style games instead and resulted in the aftermath we're seeing here and there.
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Megas

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2018, 06:08:35 PM »

I for one wish game taught me what high Hazard rating will do to your wallet few ingame years down the line.
I had no idea 175% would do a number on my account when I first played.  With max colony skills, it is okay, but I still want to find the ideal place for a new primary colony.  All of the low hazard planets I found for most of my game are either low on resources or highly isolated.  It turns out the system just north of the League could be a good multi-colony system and a second next to it.  Low on resources, but low on hazard and has what I need.  (I explored nearly the whole east of the sector and just have a string of lone waypoint colonies for my trouble.

Even poor resources is enough if admin has Industrial Planning 2 (or an alpha core) and that colony is the biggest one to supply the rest.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2018, 06:10:25 PM »

Regarding the disconnect between faction relations and the seemingly arbitrary invasion system:

Is there a reason why it wouldn't be better to simply have certain colony management decisions (free port, AI use, etc) simply start to decrease relations with another faction until they become hostile, with invasions the natural result of hostile relations, as it would be in most other games with a faction system? This would provide immediate feedback on those decisions, allowing a player to course correct if desired, and be far more intuitive all the way around.

Subjective obviously, but game factions reacting to player decisions in plausible, intuitive manner= Fun.  Surprise colony-ending doomstack from a friendly neighbor = not fun.
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Sutopia

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2018, 06:28:30 PM »

Regarding the disconnect between faction relations and the seemingly arbitrary invasion system:

Is there a reason why it wouldn't be better to simply have certain colony management decisions (free port, AI use, etc) simply start to decrease relations with another faction until they become hostile, with invasions the natural result of hostile relations, as it would be in most other games with a faction system? This would provide immediate feedback on those decisions, allowing a player to course correct if desired, and be far more intuitive all the way around.

Subjective obviously, but game factions reacting to player decisions in plausible, intuitive manner= Fun.  Surprise colony-ending doomstack from a friendly neighbor = not fun.

I think it would be good enough just adding a diplomatic stage before any expedition initiates, giving you some "kind" warns and let you have a chance to fix it.
I've suggested some kind of "production agreement" option when factions try negotiate with you, lower your production for some time.
In economics this is some real deal when monopoly tend to get more net profit. Two company cooperating to produce less product yield more profit (since they act like monopoly) than natural competitive nash equilibrium.

BTW, it doesn't really require you to use AI core to *** off major factions, just install a synthetic core with a nice megaport and Sindy would be mad enough to send expeditions.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2018, 07:03:01 PM »

Regarding the disconnect between faction relations and the seemingly arbitrary invasion system:

Is there a reason why it wouldn't be better to simply have certain colony management decisions (free port, AI use, etc) simply start to decrease relations with another faction until they become hostile, with invasions the natural result of hostile relations, as it would be in most other games with a faction system? This would provide immediate feedback on those decisions, allowing a player to course correct if desired, and be far more intuitive all the way around.

I think it would be good enough just adding a diplomatic stage before any expedition initiates, giving you some "kind" warns and let you have a chance to fix it.


Yes, but that doesn't really do anything to address why the AI can seemingly break all the rules of the faction system that the player has learned thus far in the game at will.

I remember the first time I encountered a Hegemony death blob on an invasion run right after I came out of a long battle with some pirates. I was like "Hey, there's a friendly orange fleet coming to help me chase down these pirates, and not a potentially game-ending hostile blob". I didnt even try to run.  Then they attacked me, and I laughed at the explanation which basically boils down to, "This is a special magic fleet that does whatever it wants because reasons".

There are far more crazy non-intuitive explanations and backflips trying to make sense of the current system than there would be simply fit the invasion mechanic into the existing faction relation framework, which already has a system in place for factions becoming hostile to a player based on their actions.  Obviously Alex is looking at a bigger picture than I am, and may have his reasons for the disconnect.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 07:07:14 PM by StarGibbon »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2018, 08:06:00 PM »

My guess is that currently, these invasion fleets are something to do in the current iteration of the game.  The fundamental core of the game is fighting fleets.  Everything is designed around building up your fleet, then using it to blow stuff up or alternatively on iron man, sometimes getting your fleet blown up.  The way I look at it, the campaign mode is a semi-controlled "mission" generator, and invasion fleets are just another type of mission you can fly a fleet against.

I see all this AI breaking the rules directly in the player's advantage currently, as once you drop into war standing, it is extremely difficult to stop the war state  (hopefully diplomacy mechanics are added/changed).  Not to mention war standing cuts into your profits as you can no longer trade with that faction, and your trade fleets start getting attack by all that factions fleets.  So rather than throw you directly into conflict everywhere with a given faction (or sometimes all factions given how it seems everybody sends an invasion fleet), you get the opportunity to fight some large faction fleets (or let your defenders do so if you so choose).

If at any point you decide you want to start going to blow up the other factions planets and bomb them back to the stone age so they stop attacking you, its completely within your power to do so.  Keeping in mind, given how the economy works, doing so to all factions will drop your credit income greatly.

I agree that the mechanics probably need to be explained better to the player.  I also don't know the future direction the colony phase of the game is going to take, whether more robust diplomacy is planned and so forth, which may have influenced how much time Alex wanted to put into in game tutorials on this phase of the game.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2018, 11:44:14 PM »

With all the focus on the rough edges, I'll just mention that I actually enjoy the pirate invasion event. Getting all your big boats out of storage to hunt down and destroy the offending pirate base is a satisfying bit of payback for the trouble they caused you.  That is something intuitive that I understand.

I just don't enjoy it much when all the various invasion events are happening at the same time.
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SCC

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2018, 02:34:25 AM »

It would be good (and far more believable) if, before sending any expedition fleets, the big faction sent the player a polite letter. "Dear Sir/Madam, We notice that you are now a significant producer of commodities including X, Y and Z. Be careful not to produce too much or we won't be responsible for the consequences." (Although the player would need new buttons to comply, since growth is currently automatic.)
I don't think the player should receive straightforward message of "don't do this", but rather have factions annoy you without outright using their military might. Something like Hegemony sending tax collectors, Luddic Church sending their preachers (it would be nice if this had different outcomes, and at least one of them would lead to not having pather cell from the get go), Tri-Tachyon trying to sue you over some inane ***... This could escalate to funding pirates, corsairs and eventually semi-open hostilities, as factions try to prevent others from getting you over to their side. It would also be more natural, as factions wouldn't send expeditions just because, but because you might have legitimately *** them off.

XazoTak

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2018, 03:11:39 AM »

I just wish it was possible for this kind of stuff to lead to brief hostilities leading to an eventual truce/surrender.
Leaving a trail of broken worlds would be fun, if the sign of defeat was a formal surrender and return to neutrality instead of food procurements.
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TrashMan

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2018, 03:30:52 AM »

I for one wish game taught me what high Hazard rating will do to your wallet few ingame years down the line.

Geez, setting u pa colony in a hostile enviroment that has special and harsh requirements for a colnony to function would lead to expenses? WHO WOULD HAVE THAUGHT THAT?

It's not like excessive vegetation, humidity, acid rains and the like require constant maintainance costs. Air scrubbers and pressured domes are cheap...yep. Living on an inhospitable hellscape is as simple and cheap as living on a terran planet.

NO ONE COUKD HAVE SEEN THAT COMING!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 03:34:16 AM by TrashMan »
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SCC

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2018, 03:36:57 AM »

The issue is that the first time setting a colony you just don't know how much can you do and how bad effects all these modifiers have. It's not half bad if all you lose is your time and some money, if you can earn it back, but if you lose too much (or let your colony grow) it might put you a couple of hours back in your playthrough, if you don't save scum.

Serenitis

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2018, 05:58:22 AM »

With all the focus on the rough edges, I'll just mention that I actually enjoy the pirate invasion event. Getting all your big boats out of storage to hunt down and destroy the offending pirate base is a satisfying bit of payback for the trouble they caused you.  That is something intuitive that I understand.

I just don't enjoy it much when all the various invasion events are happening at the same time.
This.
It currently ~feels~ like colonies are set up and balanced for the post endgame, where the player has done absolutely everything already, explored everything in the sector and has nothing else to do other than sit in his space castle and build giant doomstacks for lols.
That all the AI responses are at this kind of level from the start, and only proceed to escalate is a hell of a trap considering you can get started on colonies before you even get your level into double figures.

Limiting colonies to the late game is one way of 'solving' this mismatch. Although it would be a pretty rubbish way of going about it.
Scaling the 'challenge' to the player's progress would be a much nicer way of doing it.
And as mentioned previously, there definitely needs to be some diplomatic means of managing this. Being to make trade deals would be ideal.

The issue is that the first time setting a colony you just don't know how much can you do and how bad effects all these modifiers have. It's not half bad if all you lose is your time and some money, if you can earn it back, but if you lose too much (or let your colony grow) it might put you a couple of hours back in your playthrough, if you don't save scum.
And this.
The first 'successful' colony I created was on a 175% tundra world. It had plenty of resources, and was far enough away from everyone else I thought it wouldn't be bothered much.
That when I surveyed it it giving me a Class V report was what convinced me to choose it. If it's Class V that means it must be good, right?
Apparently not. It is impossible to make a profit without using either a free port or AI cores, both of which are sources of this comedy aggro.

Not that I was aware of what the %age meant in terms of colony potential.

Are we are limited to settling 100% worlds? If so, that is potentially going to be a problem. I have found a single 100% world in my current sector which is not one of the 'blank' worlds with no resources or conditions.
Is there any other way of allowing less than optimal worlds to become more than failure money sinks?
Perhaps if there were a building specialised in maintenance that could be used to reduce upkeep costs, that way you could trade industry slots for viability.
Or a skill that reduces maint on planets above a certain %? (Seeing as planet skills seem to be considered 'a waste'.)

Like the need for faction diplomacy above to mitigate, or even avoid the invasions. There needs to be some means of increasing efficiency that does not involve using AI.
Simply because not everyone wants "all drama all the the time".
Options are good. If a player wants to be a bloodknight in a fortress surrounded by debris, the game will accomdate that as it stands.
But what if you want to build somewhere 'nice', make friends with the factions, and explore the sector? Basically the colony equivallent of staying independant and never taking a commission.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 08:08:40 AM by Serenitis »
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StarGibbon

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Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2018, 06:13:21 AM »


Limiting colonies to the late game is one way of 'solving' this mismatch. Although it would be a pretty rubbish way of going about it.


Indeed. I enjoy the game *considerably* more with my own home base as soon as I can get it, and would no longer enjoy the game without that capacity.  It's definitely a move in the right direction for the game.  Sometimes you just want a place of your own after living under the roof of Ma and Pa Hegemony.

Unfortunately, if you do any decorating the Death Star shows up immediately and glasses you.
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