Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Raids are not legal grey areas  (Read 8277 times)

Talgo

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Raids are not legal grey areas
« on: November 24, 2018, 03:07:11 PM »


Suggestion: get rid of this garbage for factional attack fleets. Bombarding planets and destroying infrastructure is not a legal grey area, it is an act of war, regardless of whether you're doing it with your transponder on or off. In fact, out here in the real world, attacking a polity without a formal declaration of war is far more akin to a war crime than a "legal grey area". Taking a diplomatic hit of any size for foiling a faction's attempt to disrupt or destroy your colonies is downright insulting, and with these attacks usually consisting of multiple fleets, I usually rack up enough disfavor to end up well on the way to "hostile" by the time the dust settles. Sure I could then go do missions for them to raise my reputation back up, but A) why would I ever do favors for people who just tried to ruin me, and B) by the time I've recovered the lost rep, they're likely about to start planning another raid. Factions should either nut up and make a formal wardec after a point, or the player shouldn't be penalized at all for defending their colonies.
Logged

Deshara

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Suggestion Writer
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2018, 04:22:05 PM »

Uhh, I'm pretty sure this exact mechanic is the game saying you can repel the attackers without incurring reputation penalties.
Like, it seems awful and weird that they can attack you without declaring war, but in this game "declaring war" is reputation penalties. So what you're complaining about is that the game isn't punishing you for defending your colonies.
I think the issue is player expectations from Civ games or whatever where war is a pre-requisite for an attack -- SS functions a lot more on Cold War style conflicts where different sides attempt war crimes on eachother hoping to toe the line of what others think is acceptable predicated on the assumption that A) if they're successful their victims wont be around anymore to speak up and B) if they aren't successful then they haven't committed any war crimes for their targets to speak up about.

If you want to go to war with a faction as a response to an attack, you can. It's up to you, the game won't stop you from rolling a fleet up on a military market of the faction that tried to saturate bomb your colony and laying waste
Logged
Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2018, 04:43:44 PM »

Uhh, I'm pretty sure this exact mechanic is the game saying you can repel the attackers without incurring reputation penalties.
You can't. You being involved in (or otherwise joining) a battle to defend your colony gives you -rep with the faction that owns the attacking fleet.
Your patrols fleets however, can.
This means the only way the avoid -rep with attacking factions is to avoid fighting yourself, and let your guys do it. Which is boring.

Logged

Soychi

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Ad Rem
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2018, 04:47:39 PM »

Yea, having run into this myself, the negative relation hit makes it feel like I'm the bad guy. I'm not the bad guy for defending my people and property.
Logged
ARE YOU A COWARD? This is not for you. We badly need a brave man. He must be 23 to 25 years old, in perfect health, at least six feet tall, weigh about 190 pounds, fluent English with some French, proficient with all weapons, some knowledge of engineering and mathematics essential, willing to travel, no family or emotional ties, indomitably courageous and handsome of face and figure. Permanent employment, very high pay, glorious adventure, great danger. -Glory Road, Heinlein

Deshara

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Suggestion Writer
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2018, 04:50:16 PM »

Uhh, I'm pretty sure this exact mechanic is the game saying you can repel the attackers without incurring reputation penalties.
You can't. You being involved in (or otherwise joining) a battle to defend your colony gives you -rep with the faction that owns the attacking fleet.
Your patrols fleets however, can.
This means the only way the avoid -rep with attacking factions is to avoid fighting yourself, and let your guys do it. Which is boring.



I just reinforced a defense and only got a rep hit for running down the defeated fleet. I don't think you're getting a rep hit for defending yourself, you're getting a rep hit for murdering the merchant fleet supporting the (defeated) military raid. I think if you let the backliners run home w/o incident you don't get any hit
Logged
Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

Talgo

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2018, 05:28:40 PM »

Uhh, I'm pretty sure this exact mechanic is the game saying you can repel the attackers without incurring reputation penalties.
Every single individual engagement you have in the defense of your colony incurs a 3 point penalty, the last time I got attacked the Perseans sent what must have been at least five fleets, and they seem to be attacking that colony at least three times a year. At this point they're pretty far beyond ever gaining favor with but it's still obnoxious. Sure I could go raid all their markets until they destabilize and just wipe the faction out entirely, but just killing all the other factions is a nice way to end up with a boring sector where nothing happens except pirate and pather bounties. Having to drop what you're doing to respond to an attack or potentially suffer the consequences of a raid should be penalty enough for contesting their market shares, not an endless stream of suicides that inevitably leads to a state of permanent hostilities.

I just reinforced a defense and only got a rep hit for running down the defeated fleet. I don't think you're getting a rep hit for defending yourself, you're getting a rep hit for murdering the merchant fleet supporting the (defeated) military raid. I think if you let the backliners run home w/o incident you don't get any hit
If vaping the poor sods in a retreat is what sets off the rep hit then that's still a problem, because when you get a warning that your system is under attack then the natural response is "well I better go break out the big guns then". But if you try to intercept the raider fleets with a big fleet of your own, they will always run away from you, which means any engagement you force with them will be a pursuit that drags the logistics ships into the fight. So what am I supposed to do then if killing the logistics ships is the problem? Bring a smaller fleet so they don't run away and up ganked by the four other task forces joining the battle when I make contact? Stand around and wait for them to engage the battlestation or my patrols? Neither option sounds fun. Besides:
Spoiler
[close]
Persean League Task Force attacks my station (after the popup has already listed the raid as "Defeated", mind you), I go to assist.

Spoiler
[close]
The Perseans are defeated, no pursuit is given, -3 rep.

Spoiler
[close]
Tritachyon raiders are engaged with my patrols, I go to assist.

Spoiler
[close]
The Tritachs are defeated, no pursuit is given, -3 rep.
Logged

Cik

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 607
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2018, 05:59:32 PM »

those rules of war you are talking about don't really exist senpai, the reason they exist is that if anyone breaks them they will be killed by the UN.

there is no UN in this setting. you are killing their citizens and servants, they don't like it, so they drop your rep.

they want you to die and you're being damn inconvenient by refusing :^)
Logged

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2018, 06:16:17 PM »

This means the only way the avoid -rep with attacking factions is to avoid fighting yourself, and let your guys do it. Which is boring.

On the one side, the problem is that you get dinged for protecting yourself from (semi-)covert hostile actions.

On the other, the problem is your faction uses your personal rep instead of its own faction rep. In some ways it makes sense (your faction is you at the beginning), but in others it doesn't (why does your million population faction's rep with other factions depend solely on your actions?).
Logged

TJJ

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 06:25:18 PM »

This means the only way the avoid -rep with attacking factions is to avoid fighting yourself, and let your guys do it. Which is boring.

On the one side, the problem is that you get dinged for protecting yourself from (semi-)covert hostile actions.

On the other, the problem is your faction uses your personal rep instead of its own faction rep. In some ways it makes sense (your faction is you at the beginning), but in others it doesn't (why does your million population faction's rep with other factions depend solely on your actions?).

Speak for yourself!
I'm the benevolent dictator over more than 100 Billion human slaves workers, and a few dozen AI masters overseers!  ;D
Logged

Talgo

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2018, 07:01:32 PM »

those rules of war you are talking about don't really exist senpai, the reason they exist is that if anyone breaks them they will be killed by the UN.

there is no UN in this setting. you are killing their citizens and servants, they don't like it, so they drop your rep.

they want you to die and you're being damn inconvenient by refusing :^)
Next time you try being smug make sure you aren't wrong first, atrocities and some degree war regulations obviously exist in the context of this universe too. Regardless of the nonexistence of a stellar UN, there are some actions a faction can take in the sector that are widely regarded as wrong- raiding fleets approaching with transponders off is a clear indicator that they are fully aware that they're up to no good, because once an actual war breaks out fleets keep their transponders on even though it would be to their advantage to keep them off; the fact the game mentions that legal gray areas even exist is a dead giveaway some kind of codified law exists, because if there was no law there would be no grey areas; saturation bombing markets is explicitly labeled as an atrocity and leads to instant hostilities with all civilized factions, etc.
You're missing the entire point of the post anyway, factions throwing hissy fits because you caught them red-handed doing things they weren't supposed to do makes it feel like this universe is populated with nine year olds and leads to a tiresome gameplay experience where you get unavoidably locked into hostilities with other factions.
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 07:48:05 PM »

The loss of standing for defending your colonies is fixed for the next version already, if I read Alex's comment in the patch thread right.

Yes it's weird that these hostilities don't come with an automatic negative rep. But this is a mechanic that helps the player much more than the other faction. If you were automatically at war, all your profits would go into the toilet very quicky due to accessibility drop, and you'd have to worry about more than just expedition fleets on top of that. Think of it as a cold war system to put pressure on the player without penalizing him too hard.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 07:49:53 PM by Schwartz »
Logged

Histidine

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4661
    • View Profile
    • GitHub profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2018, 08:08:20 PM »

Reminder: The issue here is that you get rep hits for personally fighting the expedition forces. Any proposal that "fixes" it by making the attacking faction as a whole hostile to the player is an anti-solution, because it leaves the player worse off by taking away their decision on whether to escalate.
Logged

XazoTak

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 08:58:36 PM »

those rules of war you are talking about don't really exist senpai, the reason they exist is that if anyone breaks them they will be killed by the UN.

there is no UN in this setting. you are killing their citizens and servants, they don't like it, so they drop your rep.

they want you to die and you're being damn inconvenient by refusing :^)
I kind of like the idea of a UN in this game.
Star Ruler 2 has one, and it's a selfish squabble disguised as benevolent cooperation. I love it.
Logged

Deshara

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Suggestion Writer
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2018, 01:33:28 AM »

Reminder: The issue here is that you get rep hits for personally fighting the expedition forces. Any proposal that "fixes" it by making the attacking faction as a whole hostile to the player is an anti-solution, because it leaves the player worse off by taking away their decision on whether to escalate.

I remember thinking the same thing as OP initially and having to sit down and think this exact thing thru myself. It's funny how the way that this is presented to the player in-game gives the exact opposite impression of what's going on than what is actually being done -- it manages to present it in a way that feels like the player is being robbed of opportunity to retaliate rather than what's happening IE being given the option to not retaliate.
I think it's an issue that comes with the saturation bombardment mechanic's punishment sharing the same game; It gives the impression that anybody cares what you do to people outside their faction. I think it needs to be pointed out to the player better that nobody cares if you retaliate against the Hegemony for raiding you -- as long as you don't saturation bomb them.
(and probably people should go to war with whoever attacked you if they saturation bomb you too, for fairness's sake)
Logged
Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

Shad

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Raids are not legal grey areas
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2018, 02:09:42 AM »

The annoyance is more the inconsistency. If your patrols/stations hunt down the raid to the last ship, it's all fine, but if you join in, it's -3 for every engagment.

It needs to be one or the other. Either no rep loss at all (logical, as the offending state has no official reason complain), or penaties regardless of you prsonal involment.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3