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Author Topic: What are your choices with skills ?  (Read 5827 times)

Tchey

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What are your choices with skills ?
« on: November 17, 2018, 10:36:49 AM »

Hi,

I asked the same question back in 2014.

I was wondering, how do you level your character ?
Where do you spend your first points ?
How it looks like at level 10, 20, 50 ?
Please share your knowledges, ideas and experiments !
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Megas

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2018, 04:39:27 PM »

So far, the only skill I have used is Fleet Logistics.  It was very good in 0.8, and it is even better in 0.9.  Otherwise, trying to go as far as I can unskilled.  Fleet Logistics appears to be a no-brainer, though.
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Darloth

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2018, 02:51:48 AM »

I still avoid the Combat tree quite heavily, which is disappointing to me.

I still don't like that the category dots don't do anything themselves - I might make a mod that just shifts one of the skills directly onto the category... usually the skill on the far left, though in Industry it'd be the one that gets you more recoverable weapons and bits I suspect.
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Cosmitz

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2018, 05:11:12 AM »

Really? The combat tree has a lot of fantastic skills, but, to be honest, they don't really 'pop' out as useful until you get into the very nitty-gritty of how combat works, and truth be told, Combat is mostly centered around the piloted ship so it's a straight investment in multiplying player skill. Basically you get to be the instrument of what you want to happen on the battlefield, specific ships destroyed early or holding the bulwark somewhere. If you play as a huge fleet with dozens of ships with you piloting one of them you don't get as much benefit from the tree, sure. Let me give you my rundown:

Ordenance expert is the simplest one to grasp with the L3 15% weapon damage boost, but the most important step there is the projectile speed, since it works in tandem with the Gunnery Implants L2 100% Autofire accuracy. Against fighters and frigates this is golden.

Target Analysis handles a lot of the more end-game issues. 15% more shield damage is very useful when you're trying to break Paragons or other shield-heavy ships (and stations), especially with high level officers in them. But the 50% hit strenght for armor damage is huge when also facing bricktanked ships like the Onslaught.

Evasive action is a half and half, but i haven't seen a ship that doesn't benefit from maneuvrability, but the L2/L3 perks are vital if you're going for anything midline/lowtech. A lot goes behind the 'armor calculation', but it's vital to minimise a lot of the smaller hits that you get, and this helps in that.

Impact mitigation goes hand in hand with Evasive action, again, vital mostly if you only go low/midline, but even so, it can help mitigate a weakspot opening up on your armor (also does magic on smaller ships, the 150 extra armor).

Defensive systems is a must, no matter what you end up playing, especially with the L3 hardflux venting passively. The boost in survivability is huge even if you only use the shields to take torpedo/missile hits.

Advanced countermeasures work with optimizing your defences against the opposite effect and while not something you want to take early, in the lategame when you want to eek out survivability while in the midst of the entire enemy fleet, this is a must.

Damage Control is.. take it or leave it. It helps to smoothen out some of the bad situations in combat, but you shouldn't really be getting in them in the first place. And the L1/L2 bonuses can be supressed with campaign logistics/credits (supplies/crew).

Combat endurance is only really worth it for that 15% CR boost for piloted ship (which translates into sizable bonuses to combat). I'd rather get Fleet Logistics imho but if i have to choose the last skill in the game, Combat Endurance isn't horrible.

Missile spec is really specific and you either take it or not, not much to say here. (Though the L1 at least is worth it since it translates into much more hits on homing missiles)

Helsmanship is eh, take it or leave it mostly, especially with the nerfed 1% flux for top speed. When it was 5% you could take some light machine guns from fighters, with hard flux dissipation, on a raised shield and not worry about it messing up your charge, but now it's really just there to be able to hold a shield up while charging. If you take this for the escape situation, Coordinated Maneuvoers in Leadership is better, but if you take this for chasing someone down, you don't want a hit to get you out of the flux-speed bonus, so you'll be flying shields-off, weapons turned off anyway, so you can unload more from a smaller gap. Overall, helsmanship ehh, the acceleration bonus may only really help with the extremes, ultrafast frigates or ultraslow caps.


-------

However, maxing out the Combat tree comes at the expense of fleet-level issues. You won't have enough skill points at level 50 to juggle into all 4 branches effectively, so given Technology is the second 'must' after combat (Gunnery Implants, Loadout Design, Power Grid Modulation), you either go with more 'peak' performance with Fleet Logistics/Officer Management, or better critical situation management with Field Repairs/Safety Procedures to handle multiple engagements in a row or taking riskier environmental-backed fights on the overmap.

And yes, all of this does prevent you from taking all the overmap/campaign related skills, like colony government or salvage bonuses, which will cut you off from some more exotic late-game materials. But in the end, it's still done to contextualise combat, which is where we return to actually being really effective in it.

--

And since the thread talks about skills in general, i touched on a fair bit of them already, but as related to progression, the first 25 levels fly by relatively quickly so your 'core' should be set up by then. For me that's the Combat/Technology mix. If you fly carriers, it'll be the Leadership/Technology mix. If you do a lot of necrophaging with salvaging and autofitting ships with whatever and throwing them in the grinder, it's gonna be Leadership/Industry. Either way, the last 20 or so levels should be about smoothing the edges of your character and rounding it up.

--

As a final note, i'm not super sure on the breakdown of the new colony skills. You have Planetary Operations in leadership, which can be considered /really/ good with the +2 stability at the end which is the only skill of its type in Leadership, and Colony management in Industry which is made to go hand in hand with that. I would have liked it to be split like "skills that intensely benefit a small handful of colonies versus skills that allow more colonies at a lower 'intensity'", but either way, either split half and half between Leadership/Industry or just slammed all in Industry.

I'm really wondering at this point whether it's smarter to have two types of skillpoints given per level up, Combat and 'Civilian' skillpoints, so you make sure the character works up without severly ignoring one entire way of experiencing the game.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 05:41:49 AM by Cosmitz »
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Thaago

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2018, 10:33:45 AM »

In my first playthrough I went for colony skills: increased rare salvage rate + every colony bonus. Once I found a good system (and a few goodies) this made my colonies awesome: I have two worlds profiting with 500k and 425k at size 7. I also took the "standard" fleet boosting skills.

However, I noticed that compared to a usual combat build my fleet was very underpowered and I needed to avoid a lot of threats I would normally smash: it made exploration quite a bit more dangerous, and also dealing with threats to the colony. I'm going to go for a combat/colony build next and not do any technology - I think it will be a lot easier, as player combat skills are the way to go for power.

In terms of the colony skills, the Industry one is the most important: it makes so much money and boosts stability by meeting demand easily.
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TaLaR

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2018, 11:59:26 AM »

With max level raised to 50 you can  get all combat fleet-wides + most personal combat skills. At cost of not having any economic skills and leaving out most utility.

Roughly like this for piloting direct combat ships:
- combat 1 then 2 ( Combat endurance 1, Evasive action 1, Helmsmanship 2, Target analysis 2, Defensive systems 0->2 (level 2 is what really matters, take rest at combat 1)
- leadership 1: coordinated maneuvers 1
- technology 1: electronic warfare 1
- leadership 3: fleet logistics 3 + carrier doctrine 3 + coordinated maneuvers 1->3 (unlike electronic warfare this does not get countered by enemy) + officers as available for hire (eventually 3)
- technology 3: loadout design 3, gunnery implants 3
- combat 3: ordnance expertise 0->3 (it's good, but 4 points for skill that really matters makes it lower priority), target analysis 2->3, advanced counter measures 0->3 (big fleet battles are fighter/missile fests)
- navigation 3 (it became important to stop all the pesky raids)

Final picks (6 remaining):
- defensive systems 2->3 (you should keep your shield down most of the time, so not too high priority. But at just 1 point it's good enough)
- fast Conquest specialization: Helmsmanship 2->3 and Power grid modulation 0->1 (to shoot with zero flux boost, takes special design with extra caps and weapons that do not generate flux in bursts to get exactly under 5%. Fiddly, but interesting). This doesn't work, Helmsmanship 3 was reduced to 1%.
- armor specialization skills: (good for any capital, especially Onslaught): impact mitigation 0->3 + evasive action 1->3 + damage control 0->2 (that's 7 total, so getting full set takes planning)
- missile specialization 0->3 ( Reaper Afflictor / Onslaught / whatever else uses decent amount of missiles).
- power grid 0->3 . Flux is always nice, but 10% of base (not total including vents/other bonuses!) capacity/rate is not that much.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 10:26:09 PM by TaLaR »
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Cosmitz

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2018, 12:22:33 PM »

- fast Conquest specialization: Helmsmanship 2->3 and Power grid modulation 0->1 (to shoot with zero flux boost, takes special design with extra caps and weapons that do not generate flux in bursts to get exactly under 5%. Fiddly, but interesting).

It's 1% now, probably exactly for that reason. :P
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TaLaR

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2018, 12:32:40 PM »

- fast Conquest specialization: Helmsmanship 2->3 and Power grid modulation 0->1 (to shoot with zero flux boost, takes special design with extra caps and weapons that do not generate flux in bursts to get exactly under 5%. Fiddly, but interesting).

It's 1% now, probably exactly for that reason. :P

Then Helmsmanship 3 is truly useless. Soft flux beam boats with weapon flux under flux rate are equally unimpressive for AI (Not committed enough to get results, is likely to break off at some point. Just slow at killing even when everything is done correctly) and player (waste of player skill). Nothing else can keep flux under 1%.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 12:36:54 PM by TaLaR »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2018, 01:41:23 PM »

Beam boats aren't meant to get kills though. They stay alive, and distract while the player/fighters/other ships gets kills. Beam wolf will never actually kill anything or contribute meaningful damage, but it will keep a destroyer or a couple frigates (that can't really hurt it because of range advantage) distracted and away from other ships they could actually hurt. Same can apply to medusa that can also tank some damage with a strong shield. Beam AI just takes advantage of enemy AI's tendency to chase fights it can't win. I haven't really had a chance to test this stuff on the new patch though. Maybe the AI is better at that now.
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torbes

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2018, 03:04:34 PM »

Just curious, my tooltip for helmsmanship still shows 5%...  ???
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Megas

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2018, 04:50:56 PM »

In addition to Fleet Logistics 3, I added Electronic Warfare 1 and Coordinated Maneuvers 1 to help me win a difficult fight.  I probably will pump other combat-related skills despite trying to reach endgame without them.  When enemy has better officers and better quality than my clunkers despite similar size, it is hard.

(I am trying to save at least 12 skill points, 9 for colony skills in Industry, and another 3 to see if Salvaging 3 may be worth it.)
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2018, 07:02:06 PM »

For my first run in 0.9, I settled on 2 points in Industry itself, and 2 in Colony Management and Industrial planning.  Although I didn't get that until I was ready to setup a colony.   I did the usual Tech first (+15% range, +20 OP, and 1 point in EW).  I also picked up navigation this time, as +1 burn is nice for catching fleeing fleets or getting away yourself.  -25% meant less cash on fuel on exploration trips earlier on.

Then Combat (Evasive 1, Helmanship 2, Defensive systems 3, Combat Endurance 1), and then finally leadership (Fleet Logistics 3, Fighter Doctrine 3, Coordinated Manuevers 1).  Last few points are up in the air.  Maybe more combat damage, maybe trying the ground game in Planetary operations.  Maybe grab 2 or 4 more officers.
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TaLaR

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2018, 07:21:18 PM »

Beam boats aren't meant to get kills though. They stay alive, and distract while the player/fighters/other ships gets kills. Beam wolf will never actually kill anything or contribute meaningful damage, but it will keep a destroyer or a couple frigates (that can't really hurt it because of range advantage) distracted and away from other ships they could actually hurt. Same can apply to medusa that can also tank some damage with a strong shield. Beam AI just takes advantage of enemy AI's tendency to chase fights it can't win. I haven't really had a chance to test this stuff on the new patch though. Maybe the AI is better at that now.

Beams wolfs are useful early, but are not officer-worthy later. Still, not like you can pick 2 out 3 levels with officers. So my officers tend to have helmsmanship 3 anyway (and I guess it does at least work as crutch for AI that doesn't drop shield as freely as player).

Medusa... I am level 48 and have TT commission - I haven't seen single one for sale. Not something to waste as mere beam boat.
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fededevi

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2018, 01:05:34 AM »

I usually go for full combat, to me it is the most fun way to play:

Combat:
Combat endurance - 3
Ordnance Expertise - 3
Target analysis - 2 (To get 15% More damage to shields)
Defensive systems - 3
Evasive Actions - 1
Helmsmanship - 3

Tech:
Gunnery Implants - 3
Power Grid Modulation - 3
Loadout Design - 3

Then the rest go to the "nice to have" stuff in industrial/leadership.

But as someone suggested I wish skills were divided in civilian/military, or personal(piloted ship)/global(whole fleet). Or, even better, I think piloted ship skills should be removed altogether and simply replaced by officiers, even on the ship the player is piloting.

As for ships I usually start with a Sunder + 3 Phase Lances if I can find them. It one-shots most frigates and can easily and rapidly beat any other Destroyer. The hammerhead is the other option but I usually reserve those for the officers since they are a little bit more sturdy.
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Draba

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Re: What are your choices with skills ?
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2018, 05:32:27 AM »

52 seems to be enough to max everything I want with a bit to spare.

Tech
  • 3 electronic warfare
  • 3 loadout design
  • 3 sensors
  • 3 navigation

Leadership
  • 3 coordinated maneuvers
  • 3 officer management
  • 3 fleet logistics
  • 3 fighter doctrine
  • 3 command & control
  • 3 in the one that gives +2 stability on colonies

Industry
  • 3 in the colony count one
  • 3 in the colony output one(-1/+1 resource req/output, +30% income)
  • 3 salvaging
  • 1 recovery operations

Total 49 and covers all fleetwide bonuses + important economic ones.
Remainder is gunnery implants or some carrier skills.

Stability bonus might not be worth it and if you plan on using alpha cores(no limit I think) industry could be skipped entirely.
That's 16 extra skills that can go into combat.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 08:29:10 AM by Draba »
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