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Author Topic: Machine gun problems vs Shields  (Read 3323 times)

Lopunny Zen

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Machine gun problems vs Shields
« on: November 13, 2018, 05:28:37 PM »

Anyone else notice that the machine gun or dual machine gun deal insane kinetic damage. Not usually a problem on a ship due to its low range but on a broadsword it deals insane shield damage even to my cruiser. The vulcan doesnt do that same ammount so why is the machine gun doing it? It just breaks the game
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2018, 05:55:16 PM »

Anyone else notice that the machine gun or dual machine gun deal insane kinetic damage. Not usually a problem on a ship due to its low range but on a broadsword it deals insane shield damage even to my cruiser. The vulcan doesnt do that same ammount so why is the machine gun doing it? It just breaks the game
Easy: (D)LMGs are Kinetic damage type while vulcans are fragmentation. So you basically double the DPS of MGs against shields and quarter the vulcan's DPS
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Thaago

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2018, 06:18:54 PM »

This is intentional. Machine guns are effective "knife fight" anti-shield weapons, which makes up for the fact that they are very inferior as anti-missile and anti-fighter.
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Lopunny Zen

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 06:41:56 PM »

Yeah thats true for frigates and Up........but on a fighters its broken.
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Retry

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 06:55:31 PM »

The LMG and DLMG are basically "multi-purpose-ish" ballistic alternatives to the raw efficiency of the point-defense Vulcan.  It has kinetic damage to differentiate itself from the Vulcan's Fragmentation damage but they still have very short ranges.

If you have Broadswords on you, deactivate shields.  25 kinetic damage per shot gets reduced to 12.5 damage due to armor, and even light armor (150-200 or so points) mitigates even that small amount to practically nothing.

If the weapon dealt frag damage like the Vulcan, the LMG and DLMG would be directly competing with the Vulcans and would end up being basically a cheap knockoff.

The only fighters that currently use MGs or their derivatives are the Gladiator, which is somewhat costly and has serious flux issues, and the Broadsword, which can only really hurt your shields by itself.  The Broadsword is pretty decent, but it's no Talon or Khopesh.  So no, I wouldn't agree that MGs are broken on fighters.
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Lopunny Zen

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 08:17:48 PM »

But they are fighters with fighter guns. Shouldnt they do far less kinetics with them then a normal big one?
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Thaago

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 08:25:31 PM »

Why? Its a science fiction staple that fighters are capable of doing far more damage than you'd expect from their size. How is it "broken"?

Broadswords are pretty tough little fighters and do a good job driving shield flux up, but they aren't particularly powerful by themselves.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 08:56:40 PM »

Broadswords are designed to hurt a target's shields, or more precisely, to set up a target in preparation for a bomber strike (hence the combination of kinetic weaponry and decoy flares). Also note that the Broadsword has twin LMGs but also limiting flux stats, so it can't fire them indefinitely.

And, please be aware, if you have a wing of Broadswords unleashing hot metal hell as fast as they can... against armour, they're going to do f*** all. That's how damage types work.

The LMG and DLMG are perfectly balanced, on fighters or otherwise.

EDIT: If Broadswords are messing you up, lower your shields.
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Lopunny Zen

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 09:48:44 PM »

I did then they started ripping me apart....and I was in a cruiser. They shouldnt be good against shields since they should be a heavy dog fighter. There are ships designed to take out shields like the longbow as it is.
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The Soldier

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 10:50:19 PM »

I did then they started ripping me apart....and I was in a cruiser. They shouldnt be good against shields since they should be a heavy dog fighter. There are ships designed to take out shields like the longbow as it is.
They're Heavy Fighters, not interceptors.  They're not designed to take on enemy fighters, their Swarmers got removed from their loadout with the Fighter update for that reason.  Talons, on the other hand, are interceptors, and thus got a Swarmer launcher to help that role better.
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Cik

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 04:42:32 AM »

cruisers aren't immune to fighters

invest in some anti-fighter equipment or get some carriers
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Megas

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 08:05:11 AM »

Broadswords' modern role is to neutralize PD and shields.  They are not especially effective as (armor/hull damage) finishers for their OP cost.  What is more annoying from Broadswords is the flare spam, not LMGs.

Broadswords are not overpowered.  Want to see overpowered?  Use Warthogs instead (if you have them).  Multiple Warthog wings can kill just about any single target they catch fast, faster than other fighters.  (They will be significantly weakened for 0.9.)

On another note, Claws kill ships almost as quickly as Broadswords can.  Claws, too, will be weakened in 0.9.

P.S. As for topic, the short range of machine guns for assault is a fatal weakness for most ships.  Shot range is a prime stat.  Machine guns are used either as assault weapons on ships with Safety Override (because that hullmod cuts off shot range) or as PD (if Vulcans are not available or if trying to save a few OP by replacing some Vulcans with LMGs).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 08:09:54 AM by Megas »
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Schwartz

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 09:36:28 AM »

They're pretty nasty against shields, but Broadswords don't stand out from the pack as overpowered. If anything, they're merely an 'okay' choice. Fine if you need shield-killing or flares, but more expensive than Talons and not quite as threatening as others.

There's a problem when you have Broadswords on you and a missile barrage inbound. But that's not the Broadswords' fault. ;)
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 10:08:06 AM »

Broadswords are designed to be very good at pressuring shields. They do very little damage against armor. The only problem is when they're mixed with high-explosive damage, and, well, that's just a good strategy.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Machine gun problems vs Shields
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2018, 02:33:04 PM »

I'm enjoying the OP's continuing trend of 'noticing' things the rest of us noticed 4-5 years ago. If not earlier.

The mechanical arguments above are all good, and I won't recapitulate them, but having to hover within about 300 range of a ship to suppress shields isn't 'broken' - it's an invitation to get eaten alive. Flak, ACGs, Tac Lasers, Swarmers, and other anti-fighter weapons take a horrible toll on Broadswords. Fill an SO Lasher up with machine guns and see if it's a win button against cruisers, or not; it's certainly a threat, but it's not almighty.

A lot of your mechanical complaints seem to take the form of 'I don't want to have to take complex mechanics into account when I play. Why are the game's mechanics complex? I want simpler mechanics' and being annoyed that mastery of the game is difficult. Most of us think mastery of (as opposed to competence in) a game should be difficult; although I'd argue that it's not actually that difficult in Starsector, it's more difficult than finding a One True Perfect Build. Having some rock-paper-scissors, situational builds, hidden strengths and weaknesses, is part of why, I would venture to guess, most players are still playing this game. Arguing with core design goals of the game or a mod isn't likely to get you what you want.
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