Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions  (Read 4921 times)

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« on: September 27, 2018, 09:12:41 PM »

So a while ago i wrote a thing about fuel and cargo and how ships don't have much variation and how this was kind of strategically boring. here

Now i have a simple solution to the problem of cargo ships.

Say you're out in space. And you destroy a fleet and there is this big pile of wreckage. Its too much to haul back but you can stabilize the orbit, come back in 150 days!  Has anyone ever come back for that stuff? I am going to guess no. If it is even worth it its definitely not better than going somewhere else and getting new loot. But having a huge cargo is still valuable because you still need to have profit on return and having a big cargo allows this.

Well, what if, instead, you just... sold the information to someone else and they went out and got it. When you stabilized the orbit it would create a data nodule worth x amount of credits, where x is 50% of the sale value of the equipment in the cargo. You would no longer be able to loot from that cargo (doing so would require destroying the nodule) and could then go and sell that data to interested parties.  Now sure there are issues of "how could this thing work in a real economy with low levels of trust et al" and those are entirely value but i don't think it matters very much. So long as cargo is assigned a quality of the type of ships it was harvested from(which would be contraband in associated space) so that you could not blow up hegemony ships and then sell the wreckage location back to them it should work pretty cleanly.

Now the value of bringing excess cargo is a lot less. Players only need to be filling up on cargo ships if they plan to make a delivery or they want the resources themselves. What you bring home depends more on what you want rather than how much you can fit.

Logged

AxleMC131

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1722
  • Amateur World-Builder
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 11:33:44 PM »

An interesting proposition. Confusing as it may be, my response to this is threefold (and apologies for the text-walling):



1) Actually, I can tell you that people do use the ability to "Put [thing] into a stable orbit", because I use it, in fact quite regularly in the early exploration game. I don't know why you would think it's not worth it to go back and pick stuff up again later, especially if it's in a system that you haven't fully salvaged yet - at which point you were going to come back anyway, surely? And even if that weren't the case, whether it's worth it or not is wholly dependent on what exactly you're having to leave behind for later. If it's just a bunch of metals, then sure, I'd probably just leave them to float away into the black. But if I salvaged a Mining Station and salvaged more Transplutonics and Heavy Machinery than I could fit onboard? I'd definitely want to come back for that.

In most cases though, I consider the supplies cost well worth it. You must remember that in the salvage game, where you would be doing such a thing as dropping caches of loot for later, you're also generally picking up supplies just as quickly, if not quicker than you're using them. So the cost is somewhat offset.



2) Okay. Actually, I really like the idea of getting an intel chip of some kind saying "Hey, there's this cool stash of loot at X location!" and then selling that info off to someone willing to pay a price. It's basically exactly how Survey Data works - except there's a problem. Planets don't despawn after a time period, neither can they be picked up by the player. So it would be a little exploitative to be able to sell such data to a party and then immediately go recover it yourself. What would be the caveat to that? Would you get called a liar by the party you sold the intel to? Or have to fight them? How would that be set up?

... That being said. We've already seen how in 0.9 we'll be able to jettison cargo in order to distract hostile fleets (at least, pirates). I can imagine something like this being up a similar alley. Selling cargo pod intel to a buyer could be an interesting way to lure tasty targets out of the core systems - although if they're looking for your cargo, chances are they won't have much of their own, so as far as baiting-and-raiding goes, it doesn't sound that effective.

To extend upon this somewhat, what if a similar thing could apply to other objects you encounter in the outer worlds? As in, stuff that comes with the procgen, not items dropped by the player: derelict ships; weapon/supply caches; abandoned stations; Domain-Era probes, and so on. We already know that factions are willing to pay graciously for the investigation of these items ("Analyze [this thing in this system]" missions), but how do they find out about them in the first place? I would consider such a system highly superfluous, but it could be an interesting bit of world-building - and potentially roleplay - to have Explorers as well as Salvagers.



3) Finally (and shortest), this statement:
Quote
What you bring home depends more on what you want rather than how much you can fit.

The fact is, this is already the case. Even if you do intend to "come back for the rest later", chances are you're still going to be taking the most high-value (and immediately profitable/useful) goods first. This is especially the case if you're in a tight-budget situation. And that's fine! But it doesn't necessarily mean you aren't going to come back later. Selecting what you want to take from a stockpile of goods far larger than you could possibly carry all of is already a thing.



Overall, I think your initiative is sound, and I do like it, but I'm struggling to see this concept working well, and being easy for the player to understand, without also being either very superfluous (not at all necessary in the grand scheme of things), or overriding other gameplay mechanics by reliably being the "best choice" in such situations. It's not a bad idea by any means, it just needs some work.  ;)
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4112
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 01:40:14 AM »

What if you run out of space in deep space?
I throw out all the metal and take everything else. It's unnecessary dilemma, since I don't particularly want most of the stuff I collect. It just happens to be here, along with rare resources, weapons or schematics, which I do want. Volatiles, metals or food are the most common and cheapest commodities, so it's probably them that's overwhelming your cargo bays, but it's them that are the easiest to get rid of in favour of anything else.
In addition, I almost always want to have lots of spare space on me. If not for loot, then for additional supplies. This whole thing is a non issue for me.

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2018, 10:27:37 AM »

My experience is that it's almost never worth going back for stuff because you almost always are leaving metals, which are virtually worthless. Commodities in general are not very valuable, 90% of exploration income is from survey data and possibly AI cores. The leaving stuff in orbit mechanic would be much more useful if the majority of the loot was more valuable, but thats not how the game is designed.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2018, 10:51:48 AM »

2) Okay. Actually, I really like the idea of getting an intel chip of some kind saying "Hey, there's this cool stash of loot at X location!" and then selling that info off to someone willing to pay a price. It's basically exactly how Survey Data works - except there's a problem. Planets don't despawn after a time period, neither can they be picked up by the player. So it would be a little exploitative to be able to sell such data to a party and then immediately go recover it yourself. What would be the caveat to that? Would you get called a liar by the party you sold the intel to? Or have to fight them? How would that be set up?


From a logistical standpoint i would just despawn the cargo once the data was sold. (and despawn the data if the cagro is opened).

From a "how does this feel" standpoint... the supply cost is rigging the cargo to be only openable with your data nodule, such that its destroyed if its attempted to be opened without it.

edit: Basically, once you leave the system the game no longer needs to track the status of the cargo. You're unlikely to come back and open it. But you could still track it for a certain number of days if you wanted. You don't have to actually send fleets out to salvage it(though you could) you could just do that in the background (like how a lot of commodity trading and price balancing happens; no actual fleets are created to send the materials its just assumed its supplied)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 10:56:00 AM by Goumindong »
Logged

Inventor Raccoon

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
  • Digging through trash for a hydroflux catalyst
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2018, 11:48:48 AM »

Could also have information chips be consumable items. Use it and learn where the stash is, or sell it for cash.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 04:22:24 PM »

Well... if you make the chip you won't need to consume it to tell yourself where it is
Logged

Deshara

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Suggestion Writer
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2018, 05:09:11 PM »

if someone takes this option it should immediately remove the cargo from the game, just to completely not deal with players goofing around with this. Feels like it'd open too many cans of worms
Logged
Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

AxleMC131

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1722
  • Amateur World-Builder
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 05:36:59 PM »

That's my initial thought too.

And yet, what happens if the player dumps some cargo right next to a civilized world, then sells the data to someone at that world, and then watches the cargo magically disappear from existence? I can see that being very immersion-breaking.
Logged

Deshara

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Suggestion Writer
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2018, 06:01:38 PM »

include in the text that "the process of creating the data chip automatically wipes the tracking data from the computer's cache. Nobody is known to have cracked this backend -- or at least, lived long thereafter"
Logged
Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

Cik

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 607
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2018, 06:08:10 PM »

roundly justified by in-setting death threats. i like it.
Logged

Lorant

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2018, 03:58:38 AM »

i like the versatility this offers!
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2018, 10:41:05 AM »

That's my initial thought too.

And yet, what happens if the player dumps some cargo right next to a civilized world, then sells the data to someone at that world, and then watches the cargo magically disappear from existence? I can see that being very immersion-breaking.

Someone bought it and salvaged it. Also since you take a raw value hit (50% and then you’re paying tariffs) it’s unlikely to happen within the same system.
Logged

Deshara

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Suggestion Writer
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2018, 01:29:21 PM »

also you could just make sending a fleet to salvage stabilized cargo for you when you are a faction leader a thing.

edit: actually I think all salvage, combat and gameplay should be replaceable once you've got a faction.
Logged
Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: The Tyranny of Cargo: Stable Orbit Solutions
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2018, 03:49:35 PM »

That would be a really nice qol improvement, to have you faction go and collect your salvage (after you stabilize it) so you don't need to lug around massive freighters. Maybe with small losses/a chance to lose the salvage so that you are incentivized to take the most valuable cargo immediately.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2