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Author Topic: Thought Experiment: Hull Mod LPCs  (Read 2831 times)

FooF

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Thought Experiment: Hull Mod LPCs
« on: September 18, 2018, 09:12:08 AM »

With the ability to produce hulls in the upcoming 0.9 patch, the thought occurred to me that hull mods could be a kind of commodity unto themselves. Currently, if you find the blueprints to a hull mod, you right-click to learn it and then permanently have access to it on all your ships. Some are rarer than others (and some are known from the start) but the system is binary in that you either have it or you don't. The current system works fine, but I wondered if there was a middle-ground somewhere between knowing and not knowing a particular hull mod.

Enter Hull Mod LPCs. (HMLPC)



The idea behind this is that like Fighter LPCs, you can buy/sell/find HMLPCs as loot and salvage. These LPC versions are single-use consumables that you can plug into a ship via a new "hull mod slot" (working identically to the current carrier fighter slot) and gives the ship the benefits of the hull mod. The caveat here is that LPC hull mods cost no OP to mount. HMLPCs would be regulated much like fighters and weapons currently: there would be rarity levels, credit costs associated, some would be locked behind reputation levels/commissions, etc. Think of hull mod slots as a hull's natural ability to be modified whereas additional hull mods cost OP in order to fit them in.

The current system would remain as-is: you would still find blueprints and still be able to add hull mods at a cost of OP. The hull mod slots/HMLPCs would give you the opportunity to add hull mods that you don't currently know for a price. In addition, there would be "production blueprints" that would allow your colonies to produce given HMLPCs for your fleet to use or sell. Since some hull mods have an extensive OP cost, finding these rare (and valuable!) kind of LPCs or blueprints would be a boon indeed.

Let's get into some details, as I see it:

1.) Hulls would have a "natural" hull mod slot depending on size. As a general rule, it would go 1/2/3/5. You could expect bigger ships to have more hull mod slots and fine-tuning particular hulls may give more or less depending on what you wanted to do. For example, a "battlecruiser" (Legion, Odyssey, Conquest) might only have 4 hull mod slots but for balancing, the Odyssey has 5. Or perhaps a particular frigate has 2 instead of 1 (Brawler, for instance). Since HMLPCs would not cost OP when installed into hull mod slots, this would give ships more available OP to use for weapons, vents/capacitors, or even other (known) hull mods. Finally, elite variants of a hull (XIV, TT, etc.) may add a hull mod slot, further distinguishing themselves from the standard version.

2.) HMLPCs could only be installed when docked (already implemented in 0.9) and would be permanent unless deleted. Removing HMLPCs destroys the LPC and has a nominal credit cost associated. Thus, if you find an ITU LPC (super rare), you better pick wisely which ship you want it on. I would hope this creates more meaningful decisions during ship loadout rather than just "Can I spare the OP?"

3.) D-Mods fill hull mod slots. I know Alex has been pretty clear that he doesn't want you picking/choosing which d-mods to take off because you could potentially game the d-mods to min/max. D-mods would fill available hull mod slots as a priority and then move beyond them into the current version of things if there were more D-mods than hull mod slots. You would normally not be able to remove d-mods from the hull mod slots via any way except "Restore." This gives pristine ships a little more allure or at least the potential to squeeze out a bit more performance vs. a d-mod ship of the same hull. Skills tied to reducing D-mod handicaps could restore hull mod slots even if D-mods are present.

4.) Safety Overrides is an exception: it can never fill a hull mod slot. It's OP cost is part of the balancing act of using SO. A few other very OP-costly hull mods might also get included here because that's what everyone would want to use the hull mod slots for if given the chance. Alternatively, certain very OP-expensive hull mods may take up two hull mod slots if that was the route necessary for balance.

5.) Potentially, you could move this into hull blueprints themselves. Cheaper, more ubiquitous substandard blueprints of a hull may give you access to a hull you want but it doesn't have the same number of hull mod slots as the standard version. Likewise, elite versions of the blueprint may be rarely found that tack on an additional hull mod slot.

6.) Generally speaking, in terms of rarity to commonality: HMLPC Production Blueprint > Hull Mod Blueprint > HMLPC for any given hull mod. Rarer hull mods (Tier 3) currently would still be found occasionally as an HMLPC on black markets, behind commissions, etc. They would be in limited numbers but they wouldn't be absent outside of finding a blueprint on an abandoned Research Station somewhere. Common HMLPCs would be cheap and could be found on open markets but as they fill a hull mod slot and have a slight cost to remove, it's not the cost of acquiring them that's the issue.

At this point in development, I wouldn't expect anything this major to happen but I like the idea of having access to certain hullmods without permanently knowing them as the current setup has it. It would also likely involve tweaking hull OPs across the board for all hulls because these slots would factor in. However, with the introduction of colonies and whatnot, HMLPCs would be another combat-oriented reason to invest heavily into colony development because having these items would boost your in-combat prowess.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions welcome.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 09:20:21 AM by FooF »
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Thought Experiment: Hull Mod LPCs
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2018, 11:37:10 AM »

Honestly I think it'd be confusing for players if both HMBs and HMLPCs items are into the game. Moreover, lorewise it'd be strange if one used points and the other did not. I don't think it's a bad idea however, I just think it needs refining (and balancing). How about having a cost per ship to have those slots open on the first place? I always thought about implementing the AI Cores into ships in some way, attaching one to a ship to unlock a slot or two that could be filled with hullmods could be an idea. This approach would also add a neat explanation as to why it uses no OP. I also am keen on segregating hullmods into different categories. For example, survey ships having free slots for exploratory hullmods and things like that.
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Megas

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Re: Thought Experiment: Hull Mod LPCs
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2018, 12:29:15 PM »

So these are like weapons and current hullmods are the blueprints for said weapons?  And we get to mount free hullmods into so many slots like weapons and chips into mounts and bays?

I prefer to have more max OP than this.  On the other hand, if Loadout Design 3 gets tossed out and we get no more OP, this could be a roundabout way to make up for lost OP.

I do not want so many items that useful treasure gets crowded out by junk.
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TheWetFish

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Re: Thought Experiment: Hull Mod LPCs
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2018, 07:52:41 PM »

That's a lot of different elements all together.  As a thought let's look at just one of those elements; granularity of hull mod availability 
As noted the availability of hullmods is currently binary.  Consider if the player was able to find both more common limited use hullmods as well as rarer unlimited use hullmod specs

Availability could potentially be communicated to the player with a small 1/2 or similar text on the hullmod icon, representing how many are currently available & how many are potentially available, if removed from other ships.  So a (player-facing) small UI change

- How would the game communicate limited use hullmods mounted on ships in storage?
- How would the game indicate which ships had which hullmods (in the case the player wants to unmount them from there?)
- How would limited use hullmods be handled once the player learnt the unlimited spec for that hullmod?

Some of these considerations already apply to limited use items such as weapons and these aren't insurmountable questions
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Histidine

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Re: Thought Experiment: Hull Mod LPCs
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 05:44:25 AM »

Random thoughts:

- Not sure if I like the idea of ships getting hullmods without having to pay the OP cost (since this means ships can get disproportionately strong), especially for high-OP mods. This gets even worse if people get the LPC blueprint and can issue all their ships with Free ITU.
On the flip side, limited supply of HMLPCs could help make certain playstyles more effective, namely Industry (more HMLPCs available from salvage) and small fleets (smaller pool of ships to distribute HMLPCs to). I realize those benefits oppose each other.

- Observation related to the above: Limited HMLPC slots are obviously better spent on large hullmods (extreme example: Operations Center) than stuff like Advanced Turret Gyros or Accelerated Shields.

- Just as larger ship categories have higher OP costs for hullmods, capitals should not be able to stack a ton of free hullmods on a single ship. Give everyone a flat 1 HMLPC slot.
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FooF

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Re: Thought Experiment: Hull Mod LPCs
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2018, 01:23:00 PM »

Random thoughts:

- Not sure if I like the idea of ships getting hullmods without having to pay the OP cost (since this means ships can get disproportionately strong), especially for high-OP mods. This gets even worse if people get the LPC blueprint and can issue all their ships with Free ITU.
On the flip side, limited supply of HMLPCs could help make certain playstyles more effective, namely Industry (more HMLPCs available from salvage) and small fleets (smaller pool of ships to distribute HMLPCs to). I realize those benefits oppose each other.

- Observation related to the above: Limited HMLPC slots are obviously better spent on large hullmods (extreme example: Operations Center) than stuff like Advanced Turret Gyros or Accelerated Shields.

- Just as larger ship categories have higher OP costs for hullmods, capitals should not be able to stack a ton of free hullmods on a single ship. Give everyone a flat 1 HMLPC slot.

Most of these did not escape my notice in the initial thought process. Putting anything less than a high-OP hullmod in the "free" slot is sub-optimal.

There's a few ways we could deal with this:

1.) As mentioned, some high-OP hull mods are simply unavailable as HMLPCs.

2.) Some high-OP hull mods take up more than one slot.

3.) Hull mod slots are worth a maximum number of OP (dependent on hull size). Anything over that value bleeds into the next slot or costs the difference in OP.

4.) Hull mod slots have a percentage reduction of OP cost (i.e. 50%) but aren't free to slot.

Personally #3 makes the most sense to me. For example, if a hull mod slot on a Destroyer was worth 10 OP, then you could slot a variety of "standard" hull mods for free. However, if you wanted to put something more expensive in, you just pay the difference in OP or another slot. There would have to be a mechanism for you to choose that (which complicates the process) or you could simply enforce the OP penalty automatically and not bother with the UI choice.

As for number of slots per hull, that can be tweaked sure, but I like the idea of certain ships having more or less dependent on balance. Imagine if Early Epoch ships were, in general, easier to customize due to their simplicity so they had more hull mod slots meanwhile High Tech has few. Or if the Tempest didn't have any hull mod slots (due to the drone bay) but the Hyperion has 3? I think it's a way to play into strengths or create diversity among ships with similar roles.

@ Cyan Leader

I like the idea of AI cores being used this way. It would give you the choice of boosting your combat power or using AI cores for colonies. If hull mod slots were tied to AI tier level, that would take some of the guesswork out of which ships should get how many hull mod slots. However, I don't know if there are other intended uses for AI cores so I don't want to go down that path too much.

I'm also keen to the idea of hull mod tags that could fit in an "exploration" slot or the like. Having them built-in is fine but have a little more control of which hull mod you want would also be welcome.

@ The Wetfish

Using the "?" button on a ship, you would simply designate "Reinforced Bulkheads (LPC)." I don't think we'd have to be more complicated than that for an at-a-glance survey of a ship. Clicking the hull mod slot in the refit screen would bring up the inventory for HMLPCs, much like fighters for a fighter slot. Since it's drawing from inventory, and using the item immediately once slotted, I don't think there'd be a ton of confusion of what you can/can't mount in the hull mod slot. You could move the LPCs around while in refit but once you move on to the next ship or another screen, the changes would be permanent (much like purchasing a weapon from a market).

As for blueprints vs. HMLPCs, the advantage of the LPC is that is costs less OP but the disadvantage is that you physically have to one in inventory. LPCs would always be "better" but their availability would not be infinite, unlike the blueprints. Unless you have both the LPC blueprint and colony nanoforge creating LPCs, your supply of LPCs will always be limited.

I do get the confusion, though. I was trying to incorporate the current system in because it has some advantages too. I would simply like hull mod availability to be less binary.
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