Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TaLaR]

Apogee has DE-grade firepower and is slow. Unless it uses soft-flux build (ITU, Optics, HIL or TL, 2xGraviton) or dumps ton of missiles, it is hard-countered by Hammerhead outfitted for max range (ITU+Mauler+HVD, rest doesn't matter much). If Apogee does use soft-flux, it gets a tie with said Hammerhead (well, marginally a win after Hammerhead is out of CR).

'Mediocre' is the only thing I can say about that. Other combat Cruisers can reasonably win against any DE. I'm not saying player can't win at all - you could dump Hurricanes/Squalls (limited resource vs single DE) or exploit flaws in AI range management, but it doesn't change the fact that Apogee is heavily disadvantaged against a DE third it's cost (25 vs 8 ).

[Megas]

The only thing going for Apogee is the shield (which does not win fights).  Apogee lacks the speed and shot range (especially with awkwardly placed mounts) to force fights.  Large energy stinks compared to large ballistic, except Tachyon Lance if the ship has ballistics (which Apogee does not).  Large missile off at an angle is bad too.  The only large missile worth anything is Locusts, but only as a finisher (or frigate killer).  Apogee cannot use Hammers and Repears easily.  MIRVs are a joke, especially on AI (who wastes them).  Squalls do not last long enough.

Apogee has better capacity than other cruiser-sized warships, but pales compared to Colossus.

One thing that would make Apogee better would be to swap the large energy to large hybrid or universal (and no other changes).  Then it can be a bit like the good version of Remnant's Brilliant.  Brilliant is basically evil Apogee, trading capacity for flight deck, but Brilliant can be a vicious sniper.

[Goumindong]

Best Large Missile is the Locust and both HIL and the .6 shield is amazing when part of a team. Plus you don't need as much/any PD because of the anti-missile system and the .6 360 degree Shield

If you want an Anvil to hammer against you can't do much better than the Apogee. It doesn't duel well (unless you have kinetic missiles and then it does duel just fine, who cares about using resources that is the point) but it doesn't need to to be an effective ship

edit: In case you're wondering, using this loadout, the hammerhead didn't even get in range(it fired the missiles because they were on auto but it was not necessary, frag missiles aren't too important against shields)

Spoiler

[close]

[TaLaR]

edit: In case you're wondering, using this loadout, the hammerhead didn't even get in range(it fired the missiles because they were on auto but it was not necessary, frag missiles aren't too important against shields)

Spoiler

[close]

I meant proper Hammerhead variant outfitted for range, not that sorry thing called 'Balanced' that comes default with sim.

Spoiler

Though it's probably better to replace Needlers for more caps or flux distributor in this particular scenario, as insurance against inevitable AI failures.

[close]

[Goumindong]

It still wouldn't get into firing range. The Apogee hits 1600 range, the Hammer head hits 1200 as soon as the Hammerhead blips its shields its dead, which it will because 2x Graviton and 1x HIL produce more soft flux than the Hammerhead can abosrb. The Hammerhead can absorb 583.3 Flux/Second of soft flux (350 / 0.6) and the Apogee puts out 650 shield DPS. Even if the Hammerhead gets into range of the Needlers(960 vs 1600) the Apogee out-fluxes it. The Light Needlers are barely flux efficient against the Apogees shields 1.1211 to 1 ratio of damage to flux, so you're burning up your flux against a double size flux cap, and you cannot vent or simply stop firing to deal with the soft flux increase due to firing, because the Apogee out-fluxes your soft flux cap.

Two Hammerheads might do it but its still the same problem, roughly, and they're ships with different design intent. As you scale up and add support the Apogees do a lot better because the swarmers and HIL synergize with themselves and with fleets in general better than the Hammerheads do.

Granted, in actual operation i tend to NOT fit the AO and instead fit some other things, but that is because i specifically want to match range with my other ships as the primary value is the .45 shield after hardening and the anti-fighter swarm of missiles.

[TaLaR]

...
The Hammerhead can absorb 583.3 Flux/Second of soft flux (350 / 0.6) and the Apogee puts out 650 shield DPS.
...

It's 450/0.6 = 750. And could be raised higher (flux distributor +60, stabilized shield +50) if I just wanted to counter soft flux at any cost. So absolute max is 560/0.6 = 933.
Max damage output for HIL Apogee is is 800 (add 2 Tacs to already present config).
Of course, with just 133 flux per second that Hammerhead has free, killing anything is going to take ages, which is why I said it's a stalemate.

[xenoargh]

The current Apogee got nerfed beyond reasonableness, agreed.  

It either needs:

1.  Better shield efficiency.
2.  Deeper Flux dissipation / capacity reserves.
3.  Improved turret arcs.
4.  Better maneuverability.
5.  Better System for combat purposes.

Or a little of all of the above.  I'd say 2-5 are the most relevant; it was great when it was a shield-tank that could (vaguely) hurt things, but was very forgiving of User Error, compared to most Cruisers.

On the idea of, "give player an Apogee early"... meh, IDK.  As it is, players can score a lamed Venture right at the start of the game (in the Tutorial area).  All it does is give newbies an expensive ship to maintain, for which they lack the skills or no-how; the benefit to long-term players isn't a lot better, either, as the Venture's not exactly an awesome ship right now.

[Goumindong]

...
The Hammerhead can absorb 583.3 Flux/Second of soft flux (350 / 0.6) and the Apogee puts out 650 shield DPS.
...

It's 450/0.6 = 750. And could be raised higher (flux distributor +60, stabilized shield +50) if I just wanted to counter soft flux at any cost. So absolute max is 560/0.6 = 933.
Max damage output for HIL Apogee is is 800 (add 2 Tacs to already present config).
Of course, with just 133 flux per second that Hammerhead has free, killing anything is going to take ages, which is why I said it's a stalemate.

'

100 to run the shield so (450-100)/.6 = 583.3. It could indeed be raised higher but you're still running the same problem*. Its not a stalemate, the Apogee wins.

If the Apogee needs anything it could be a DP reduction to 22 or 20 instead of 25. But that might be too much. Its still a quite competent ship. Though improved turret arcs (so that the back two Medium Energy can more easily hit the sweep spot at the Large Energy front)would be nice

I wasn't adding the TacL's because of flux costs though its probably do-able.

*Plus you would have to lose a LOT of guns for that. And the Hammerhead is nothing without its guns

[Megas]

The biggest nerf to Apogee was the change to AI.  AI is now like "If we can't gang up on him, let's run away until everyone has no CR left!  He's too slow to catch us!  Then we will all drift dead in the water together sipping on kool-aid."  Before 0.8, AI generally charged in for the kill; at least they had a spine.  If they continued to do so, then lack of speed and shot range would be much less of a problem.

[Igncom1]

Yeah, before hand I found manoeuvrability and speed to be almost essential deciders in a battle with range simply being nice.

Now speed is of little use when compared to range, which is godly at getting the AI to try and attack at all.

The old speedy wolf frigates were terrifying death dealers, but now they are simply annoying little retreaters that poke and prod.

[TaLaR]

100 to run the shield so (450-100)/.6 = 583.3. It could indeed be raised higher but you're still running the same problem*. Its not a stalemate, the Apogee wins.guns

Right, shield cost. Still 460 regen for optimal anti-soft Hammerhead. Which gives 766 vs 800. Still a stalemate because Hammerhead will just retreat on high flux as faster side (at least it should, but there is a chance of AI failing to do so in time and getting chipped to death. It would still take too ridiculous amount of time to count as a useful win).

[Goumindong]

It cannot and will not retreat. The Apogee has 1600 range in this instance versus the Hammeheads 1200/960. The AI Hammerhead will not have time to get out of range. It will die.

The Hammerhead is a fine ship. Especially at its DP cost. But it’s not beating or stalemating a cruiser unless you’re piloting it and even then you will have a rough go of it. You might as well suggest it would beat an Eagle.

The Apogee is almost as good a line ship as an Eagle. It’s better in some ways (ex damage, tanking), and worse in others (hard flux damage, mobility, DP cost) but it’s still the same type of ship.

[TaLaR]

It cannot and will not retreat. The Apogee has 1600 range in this instance versus the Hammeheads 1200/960. The AI Hammerhead will not have time to get out of range. It will die.

The Hammerhead is a fine ship. Especially at its DP cost. But it’s not beating or stalemating a cruiser unless you’re piloting it and even then you will have a rough go of it. You might as well suggest it would beat an Eagle.

The Apogee is almost as good a line ship as an Eagle. It’s better in some ways (ex damage, tanking), and worse in others (hard flux damage, mobility, DP cost) but it’s still the same type of ship.

Hammerhead has 30 speed over Apogee (90 vs 60) and needs to retreat 400 distance (actually less, rear Gravitons don't have full range). About 15 seconds if you add a bit for acceleration. While still being slightly flux positive in process (if it has Stab shields and Flux distributor).
There is no real reason for Hammerhead to fail it's retreat, if properly piloted. But sure, AI may and will occasionally fail at this seemingly trivial task.

Eagle is faster, has much more hard flux range, and enough dissipation to counter soft-flux while doing so. Unless Eagle overfluxes itself by shooting too much, Apogee is no threat to it. Admittedly, AI in current version is prone to committing this error (should be better in next one http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13384.0 ).

Either way Apogee gets it's chance only due to AI errors of opposing side. In theoretical case where both sides behave optimally, it can't win (stalemate vs Hammerhead, crushing defeat vs Eagle).

[Gothars]

If the Apogee becomes an exploration focused ship, its combat capabilities should reflect that. The typical goal of an exploration ship in combat is to escape without damage and go on exploring. I think the Apogee's strengths should be
- disabling or disarming anything faster than itself
- avoiding damage while outnumbered/outflanked (important since repairs are slow and costly while on your own)
- escaping from anything that has similar or greater power

At the same time there's no need for it to be able to go toe to toe with other, combat-focused cruisers. It kinda needs that weakness, to make up for the better logistical profile it has to have as an explorer.


Some ideas to archive that:

- greatly reduce flux dissipation while increasing flux capacity. That way it can't use flux hungry weapons like the heavy blaster to threaten bigger ships, but it has a longer time window in which the shields keep it safe.
- increase speed, ideally with a mobility system. (A defensive system like fortress shield would be an alternative, but I think a boring one.)
- give it an EMP escort drone, like the Terminator. That could create openings for the Apogee to make a retreat.

[Goumindong]

The Apogee actually has a really good weapons profile for exploration.

You typically find two types of foes [redacted] and [redacted] remnants.

The first are swarming and have shields and are good at flux dumping and the Apogee is good as a defense against that.

The second have no shields and the Apogee is second only to the Sunder in killing things with no shield (on the non-capital fuel profile) because the HIL is second only to the Plasma Cannon in killing armor and still amazingly good at killing hull.

Re: the Eagle I meant the Hammerhead might as well fight an Eagle.