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Author Topic: Beam Stuff  (Read 22515 times)

Megas

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2018, 07:02:52 PM »

Okay, I (mis)used order of magnitude.  Fine, Odyssey is on a different tier or level, and not in a good way.  While Paragon may be on top tier, and the other four are roughly mid-tier, Odyssey is low-tier.

Odyssey cannot solo capitals except maybe with Tachyon Lances (or Plasma Cannon and Claws).  If reliably killing capitals with Odyssey is not an option, then that means attacking fleets with smaller ships, which cruisers can do too.  One cruiser may be enough, but if it is not, I can chain-flagship both (i.e., deploy one ship, leave, deploy another flagship), or I can deploy both and have the AI-controlled second cruiser double team enemy ships with me.

Aurora is expensive, hard to outfit, and has terrible shot range.  I rarely use Aurora.  I use Falcons, Eagles, Dominators, and especially Herons (occasionally Mora too).  Heron is probably the most powerful cruiser in the game to solo things with.

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I don’t understand how you think the Odyssey is so bad when you yourself claim that the primarily limiter is Tachyon Lances. Yet you want 4 rare tachyon lances for your Paragon as opposed to only two for your Odyssey. You get to bring two Odyssesy for every Paragon you can field. You can fit a single Odyssey twice as easily as you can fit a Paragon!
Because if I try to use anything else, Odyssey cannot kite-and-snipe effectively, which leaves brawling as the only option, and it loses in a slugging match against any other capital (even against weaker ones like Conquest), and I can thank the shield nerf (plus energy weapons' overall inferiority) for that.  Odyssey was not that great at slugging matches in previous version, but it lasted a bit longer with better shields, and Conquest (and Astral) was not as powerful back then.  (Astral was laughably weak until 0.8.)  What is more, the one weapon which gives Odyssey a chance, Tachyon Lance, is extremely rare, and there is no substitute for Odyssey.  Even if Odyssey can use Tachyon Lance, it cannot brawl with other weapons like it used to (unless it guts its entire loadout) thanks to the shield nerf and low OP.  All it can do is kite-and-snipe.

If I want Tachyon Lances for Odyssey, I want three for all three heavy mounts, so I can use all three at roughly the same time when I need them.  (I would use Advanced Optics, 3 Tachyon Lance, 10 or so LR PD Laser, and at least one (probably two) Longbows so Odyssey can safely kite-and-snipe while Longbows bombard enemies)  Also, while I want four for Paragon, it can use HILs (and Ion Beams) as a (sniping) substitute (or other weapons for more brawling power) until more lances are found.  If I only have two lances, I put those two in the turrets while Paragon uses HILs (or whatever) in the hardpoints.  Eventually, I want four because Tachyon Lance is better than HIL.

Paragon can use inferior weapons and still have a chance.  Paragon can use almost anything, maul whatever it is fighting.  I can use all-beam Paragon, all pulse laser Paragon, all blaster Paragon, combo Paragon, or whatever, and it kills things and wins battles.  But with Tachyon Lances and HVDs, Paragon can do the one thing no other ship aside from a carrier with fighters can do, snipe and kill things across a screen or two.  Until battlestations got automatic Gunnery Implants 3, it was possible for Paragon with the right skills to (mostly) outrange a full-powered battlestation, and pick off modules one-by-one without getting shot back by its HILs and Squalls.

Thanks to the buffs Conquest received (and the weaker skills that knocked Onslaught off its throne), as long as it has one or two Gauss Cannons (common thanks to pirate Mudskippers dropping them) somewhere to counter Paragon, it can be somewhat flexible on loadout and have a decent chance of killing any capital and other ships.  Not auto-win, but a reasonable chance of victory.

P.S.  As for burn speed, thanks to Sustained Burn, burn speeds of ships are mostly irrelevant.  Also, by the time I am ready to use capitals in my fleet, it includes an Atlas and/or Prometheus, which are slower than every other ship.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 07:09:06 PM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2018, 07:39:08 PM »

Yes if you refuse to do the things that make the Odyssey good it indeed will not be good. The point about the Aurora was not that the Aurora was good, rather that while it is faster than the Odyssey it’s not nearly able to do the “same thing”.

You absolutely can “kite and snipe” with an Odyssey. You’ve got 143 speed or more! Two eagles cannot do what it does. Two eagles can’t even get close. Except that since it does 3 tachyon Lance worth of spike damage (2.5 average if full cycling) before turning the third turret to bear it’s not really “sniping”

You do not even want a third tachyon in the rear large let alone need it to fit the ship out! If you’re fitting out an Odyssey and have three tachyon lances and a heavy Blaster fit two TLs and the Blaster! If you ever want to bring three TL on target at the same time you’re better off having hard flux in the rear slot.

Maybe you’re just a better pilot than me but when the enemy has 400 deployment in ships two cruisers doesn’t cut it. An Astral is OK but it’s sooo slow at killing everything. A Paragon is even worse and sometimes actively dangerous (it’s sooo slow the other ships will have significant engagement time before you make it even if you tell them to back off, the Odyssey being on the other side of the map having killed 50+ deployment points by then, does not have this issue.)

I agree that the cruisers are generally superior... (The Eagle specifically due to its decent shield/speed profile and ability to HVD and Graviton making an excellent line ship, and the Heron for non-strike carrier roles) ... but this refers to all capitals and not just the Odyssey.  I wouldn’t field a Paragon before I would field two eagles and I wouldn’t field an Eagle until I could field a few destroyers.

I am not fielding an Odyssey or a Paragon or an Astral or an Onslaught or a Conquest* until I have enough firepower to take down a single capital with the fleet (minus its support of course). I don’t need to be able to punch through the thing later.

*which I also really like now that I discovered the hilarity of ECCM and expanded missiles on it.

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TaLaR

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2018, 08:39:59 PM »

@Goumindong
There is significant difference between using 2 or 3 TLs on Odyssey. Soft flux is all or nothing approach, so either you overwhelm their flux vent rate, or you can't even scratch them. Any additional damage output past tipping point radically decreases time-to-kill.
3xTL (+HEF) + extra Tac Lasers is the best that Odyssey is capable of, so that's what soft flux Odyssey should do.

I am not fielding an Odyssey or a Paragon or an Astral or an Onslaught or a Conquest* until I have enough firepower to take down a single capital with the fleet (minus its support of course). I don’t need to be able to punch through the thing later.

- Onslaught is fairly suitable for solo deployment (since you can catch pesky frigates with Burn Drive)
- Paragon not so much (prone to stalemates due to enemies avoiding it)-
- Astral is probably fine too, but I never have carrier-skills to properly use it.
- Conquest can do it too, though against smaller fleets than Onslaught.

Plus "enough firepower to take down a single capital with the fleet" boils down to one Afflictor (or at most two chain-deployed)
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Goumindong

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2018, 09:12:37 PM »

If you’re shooting at capitals sure.... but you can build up hard flux with the third turret when necessary... which means you’re not all in with soft flux as you have hard flux options.

For smaller ships you absolutely have enough firepower to go in on the soft flux and you should not sacrifice survivability by pointing the third turret at the enemy fleet unless you have to.

All of those a suitable for solo deployment against non-capital fleets... but so is the Odyssey against non capital fleets. (Hell its speed makes it generally better than others)

Edit: The third turret, regardless of what is in it, should be shooting maybe 5% of the time.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 09:14:25 PM by Goumindong »
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TaLaR

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2018, 09:59:21 PM »

If you’re shooting at capitals sure.... but you can build up hard flux with the third turret when necessary... which means you’re not all in with soft flux as you have hard flux options.

Closing into hard flux range against a Capital is suicidal enough even with proper full hard flux build (no-skills vs sim). With just one large slot on enemy you are at best a sidekick to your allies, with no 1vs1 viability.

Edit: The third turret, regardless of what is in it, should be shooting maybe 5% of the time.

That means you basically use only 2/3 of the ship. Criminally inefficient piloting, as I see it :)
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Goumindong

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2018, 11:35:38 PM »

If you’re shooting at capitals sure.... but you can build up hard flux with the third turret when necessary... which means you’re not all in with soft flux as you have hard flux options.

Closing into hard flux range against a Capital is suicidal enough even with proper full hard flux build (no-skills vs sim). With just one large slot on enemy you are at best a sidekick to your allies, with no 1vs1 viability.

Edit: The third turret, regardless of what is in it, should be shooting maybe 5% of the time.

That means you basically use only 2/3 of the ship. Criminally inefficient piloting, as I see it :)

You also only use 2/4 turrets on the conquest at once... you’re deciding to use 1/3 of the ships speed and and all of its shield rather than simply not taking damage.

And you don’t charge into a 1v1 with an enemy capital. Like... I just described how it works. Defeat in detail.. you destroy the larger force piece by piece
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TaLaR

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2018, 12:28:59 AM »

You also only use 2/4 turrets on the conquest at once... you’re deciding to use 1/3 of the ships speed and and all of its shield rather than simply not taking damage.

And you don’t charge into a 1v1 with an enemy capital. Like... I just described how it works. Defeat in detail.. you destroy the larger force piece by piece

On Conquest it's not a matter of choice - aligning all it's turrets on single target is impossible, and it doesn't have flux to fire all 4 at different targets for significant duration.
Also Conquest kind of has to go for asymmetric build to be competitive - 2 Gauss on 1 side to safely(but slowly) kill Paragon/Onslaught, whatever else (probably Mjolnir) on other side to quickly kill smaller or distracted targets.

Odyssey can align all 3 turrets on same target (even if doing so is awkward), and does have enough flux for that. HEF gives additional stimulus to do so (to fire all 3 during short HEF window). TL reload time also aligns quite closely with HEF cooldown.

Any other Capital can kill a an enemy that is distracted by your allies, in most cases even faster than Odyssey. If your fleet as whole already has that much advantage, performance of Odyssey doesn't matter much.

It's mobility is also overstated.
Conquest is close in terms of general speed due to system. Onslaught can be even faster, as long as we speak strictly about pushing. Astral and Legion have fighters to get over speed advantage and do not need to drop zero flux boost most of the time (with helmsmanship 3). Only Paragon is truly limited in terms of mobility.
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Goumindong

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2018, 01:12:57 AM »

The Conquest goes about as fast when it uses its active. It’s otherwise significantly slower.

The Odyssey is faster than the bombers on the Astral. (143 vs 130)

It really matters
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Rigel

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2018, 02:58:03 AM »

if the general sentiment is that the odyssey is poor for its supply cost, then what would be the correct supply cost if we are to reduce it without changing any in-combat stats of odyssey? 35? or something around 38?
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2018, 04:10:06 AM »

if the general sentiment is that the odyssey is poor for its supply cost, then what would be the correct supply cost if we are to reduce it without changing any in-combat stats of odyssey? 35? or something around 38?
The problem with that is that it would make it cheaper than the Onslaught, which is a low tech ship AND the Conquest, both of which are 40 DP.
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TaLaR

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2018, 04:40:48 AM »

if the general sentiment is that the odyssey is poor for its supply cost, then what would be the correct supply cost if we are to reduce it without changing any in-combat stats of odyssey? 35? or something around 38?
The problem with that is that it would make it cheaper than the Onslaught, which is a low tech ship AND the Conquest, both of which are 40 DP.

I think we need to look at combined supply and fuel costs (I think I spend comparable amount if not more on fuel in my playthroughs...). Onslaught is 40/15, Paragon 50/10, Odyssey 45/10, Conquest 40/10.
Is Odyssey superior to Conquest in it's combat performance? Maybe for some specific situations under player control, but generally not.
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Rigel

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2018, 08:59:12 AM »

if the general sentiment is that the odyssey is poor for its supply cost, then what would be the correct supply cost if we are to reduce it without changing any in-combat stats of odyssey? 35? or something around 38?
The problem with that is that it would make it cheaper than the Onslaught, which is a low tech ship AND the Conquest, both of which are 40 DP.

I think we need to look at combined supply and fuel costs (I think I spend comparable amount if not more on fuel in my playthroughs...). Onslaught is 40/15, Paragon 50/10, Odyssey 45/10, Conquest 40/10.
Is Odyssey superior to Conquest in it's combat performance? Maybe for some specific situations under player control, but generally not.

yeah my original question was pretty much "what is odyssey's "net worth" in its current state?" and so if odyssey is weaker than onslaught and conquest then it should cost less. (ofc im not saying to just nerf it in that case and leave it as is)
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Wyvern

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2018, 09:34:44 AM »

Goumindong: The problem with the Odyssey isn't that you're making it work - the problem is that, against a similar opposing fleet, I could deploy a Legion - possibly backed by a couple of fast destroyers or a cruiser, possibly just on its own - and then roll over the opposition, killing everything in my path.  Lower total deployment cost, greater effect.  Or, if I wanted to mimic your playstyle of circling around the edges and picking off anything destroyer or smaller, I could deploy an Aurora.  (Actually, a good Aurora build can pick off most cruisers that get themselves separated from support, too.)

If the Odyssey cost 30 supplies to field, I'd have no problem with its current power level.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: Beam Stuff
« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2018, 12:10:09 PM »

Also Conquest kind of has to go for asymmetric build to be competitive - 2 Gauss on 1 side to safely(but slowly) kill Paragon/Onslaught, whatever else (probably Mjolnir) on other side to quickly kill smaller or distracted targets.
Actually, stock Onslaughts are unoptimized enough that, assuming no skills, AI Onslaught vs. AI Conquest (with Hardened Shields and/or high capacitors) is roughly even.  Gauss is only required for Paragon, or perhaps an Onslaught with skills and/or better optimized loadout (not present in vanilla).

Also, AI Conquest seems to have more trouble piloting with Gauss cannons than it does with something more ordinary like Mark IX.

If I do not think I will encounter Paragon, I ignore Gauss Cannons because they are OP (ordnance point) and flux hogs.  Only if I think I will fight Paragon do I mount the Gauss Cannons because Conquest will die against Paragon like non-beam Odyssey does against every other capital.  With Gauss, Conquest only needs to get into beam range.  If it gets into range with the rest of Paragon's weapons, Conquest is dead.

* * *

I think Odyssey is worth no more than 35 DP at its current power.  At 45 DP, I prefer to use Conquest or Legion instead, if I do not go all the way for Paragon.
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