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Author Topic: [0.97a] Mayasuran Navy 11.0.0 RC1  (Read 746016 times)

ThePollie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #180 on: April 25, 2019, 06:24:09 AM »

Because "it's good for the first five minutes of the game and is a total trap to use for the rest" isn't a niche. We already have enough ships like that in the junker, ugly pirate lines of ships, we don't need entire mods further adding to that.

How I'd fix it? Personally, I'd change the forward nose guns to hybrids and the middle hybrid to a universal. I find the energy slots are often the most awkward to fit, and are routinely left emptied in a lot of my rigs. Broadening the rear gun arcs to allow them to fire forward could be interesting. I often leave them empty because rear security with the Manta is a novel waste of OP most of the time. The lack of a missile slot makes it difficult for this ship to effectively dive on opportunities unless you're willing to sit at 90% flux after firing a pair of anti-matter blasters, which is effectively suicide if literally anything moves on you.

A ship-specific module to slightly reduce OP for fighters could help relieve the stranglehold on OP the ship has. I often take Thunders or Broadswords specifically because they'er so OP-lax, and I've humoured Talons once or twice.

Reduced DP, as well. It feels wildly off that a base and even Mayasuran Hammerhead are cheaper to field while also being consistently better in combat. Three Manta(Ms) are 33 DP. 28 is a Heron and Hammerhead, which has the advantage of three missile mounts, a more easily fitted expanded flight deck, and the autoloader to brute force duels. 30 DP for twin Falcons, which can both kite larger cruisers, but still pack the punch to bully destroyers, and the maneuverability to challenge frigates.
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lethargie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #181 on: April 25, 2019, 06:43:22 AM »


@lethargie Perhaps, but from what I've seen of the stat buffs, I'd say it's worth it. You get a lot of extra armour and flux handling. And it's only +2 deployment points btw; regular Manta is 9. That price is mostly to account for the fighter bay, since carriers are still very powerful, and since the (M) version gives it a fighter buff too (if an indirect one), I think the price increase is deserved.
  I forgot the (M) version boosted fighter, that is an important thing to remember while discussing balance. Actually I went and read the mayasuran prime hullmod description now. I still think its not worth it except on dedicated carrier. 25% more deployment cost gives you 4% flux stat and 100 armor. There is no way this is worth it if you don't have fighters. 25% increased deployment cost should translate roughly to a 25% increase in power (with diminishing return for large ship since concentrated power offer some perks)

@ThePollie Actually I would give the 3 manta some pretty good chances to kill the hammerhead + heron. If they load on interceptors they can neutralize most of the heron threat while focusing on the hammerhead since they are faster. Whats more likely to happen I think is a kind of stalemate with cr decay since the manta lack armor piercing firepower and arent that much faster.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #182 on: April 25, 2019, 04:05:07 PM »

I'd give three of most ships good odds of beating two of most ships, excluding a massive weight disadvantage. My point was more that I can either take these two ships or these three ships, and the Heron/Hammerhead combo generally provides better results in a fleet setting.

In a vacuum engagement? I figure the Hammerhead and Heron separate, because AI be how it do, and one of the two gets 2v1'd or even 3v1'd and run over instantly.
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Dal

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #183 on: April 26, 2019, 02:37:43 PM »

I run Mantas as pursuit craft and SO skirmishers, they're great before you have reliable cruisers.
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ahrenjb

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #184 on: April 30, 2019, 11:36:40 AM »

Just wanted to give a quick shoutout to the team responsible for this mod - great stuff, I appreciate all your work.

I haven't fully explored the mod by doing a dedicated Mayasuran campaign, but what I've used so far has been well balanced, remarkably well polished, and appears to integrate very well with the game.

In my current campaign, I stumbled on a Mayasuran cruiser BP package fairly early on. When I founded my first colony and the Veriditas movement was born, those cruisers were the only heavy standoff power the faction was able to muster. The first lean years were relatively peaceful, and I neglected any military buildup in favor of industrial development. During that time, a Javinicus (M) BP came up for sale at Freeport. Tired of scrambling every time the Hegemony decided to perform an unlawful inspection, I couldn't resist adding a true anchor to the BP catalog. 6-months of bankruptcy later, the cumulative economic output of now two worlds resulted in the christening of the first ship-of-the-class - the "Resplendent".

The Resplendent mounts a full complement of Diable-designed Artassaut revolver cannons, coordinated by state-of-the-art integrated point defense, integrated targeting, & gunnery control AI. Twin Monstro turrets, a pair of State support beams, and an array of torpedo launchers at the bow provide offensive capabilities. When it first undocked from the orbital construction yards of Nareth, it promised a new era of security for the young world. A promise it had the opportunity to keep just days later as a large Diable expedition entered the system.

Over 1000 faction casualties, and more than a million credits of lost hulls, weapons, and supplies later, the Resplendent has now spent nearly 3-months engaged in constant back-to-back warfare supporting the battlestation in orbit against Diable and the Hegemony. An ORA fleet is en-route. If the Veriditas Movement survives these dark times, it will be by being carried on the back of the Mayasuran-designed battlecruiser. Mayasura is not forgotten, the spirit lives on.

Once again, bravo mod team!
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Flunky

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #185 on: May 03, 2019, 09:29:07 AM »

One bit regarding all the discussion of Mayasuran (M) ships that I don't think I've seen addressed: the increased supply cost of deployment does not actually increase the DP cost to deploy, just the cost to supplies to recover the CR after battle. So you're not actually fielding fewer ships unless you lack the supplies to pay for it.

At least, that's what I'm seeing right now in game alt-tabbing back and forth. Same deal with (D) mod ships in vanilla - they're cheaper to deploy, but you can't actually field more at once.
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lethargie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #186 on: May 03, 2019, 09:40:39 AM »

Are you sure about that? I kinda remember it affecting DP.

If it does not, then all Mayasuran ship are are blatantly overpowered since DP is the only balancing factor the game has.
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Flunky

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #187 on: May 03, 2019, 10:06:15 AM »

The tooltip shows increased supply cost to deploy, but the actual DP cost measured at the bottom of the window when deploying ships only increases by the base amount instead of the modified amount. Again, same as (D) mods (in order to prevent 20 DP onslaughts or silliness like that).

That said, I wouldn't say blatantly overpowered but I haven't had much time to spend with their ships (just a couple of recovered blueprints).
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Retry

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #188 on: May 03, 2019, 08:01:29 PM »

I wanted to say that it didn't increase DP cost too, but I don't have the most current Mayasuran version yet so I don't know if that since changed or if my unreliable memory is completely off in the first place.

IIRC, the Mayasuran "elite" ships (don't recall the actual designation) have small stat buffs compared to the base variants at the cost of increase in logistic costs, specifically supplies.  I believe it works similarly in other mods like SWP's Cabal Ships, and the mods of a few others that contain "elite" versions.

Even Vanilla has some of this with their "elites" being Hegemony XIV versions of some ships, whose buffs include flux dissipation, capacity, and especially Armor.  Except instead of a higher logistics cost, those are marginally slower than the base versions.  That speed penalty is supposed to be the countermeasure, I suppose.  But really, who chooses an Onslaught XIV for speed anyways?

[Just downloaded the newest version of Mayasuran Navy now.  I can confirm, that the increase in supply/deployment cost from the Mayasuran Prime thing does NOT increase DP combat "width".]
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #189 on: May 03, 2019, 09:35:35 PM »

Small teaser for next update

Spoiler
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Retry

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #190 on: May 03, 2019, 10:11:51 PM »

Okay, so I've tried and tested the Manta (M) out a little bit.

It was fun.  Really fun, actually.  Very refreshing from my usual piloting of Capitals and some Cruisers.

Here was my loadout:
1x Crossbow Heavy Bomber (Mayasuran Prime ships get a -2 OP cost to bombers, it's hidden in its description)
2x Ion Cannons, front energy mount
2x Railguns, front ballistic turret
1x Dual LMG, central turret
2x Reliant HMG, rear turrets (from SWP)
ITU
Rest OP in vents

First thing of note is that the Crossbow is, effectively, a Fighter-Bomber.  In addition to its Gorgon missiles, it also has a twin energy weapon thing on the front.  You can actually deploy the bomber against other bombers and fighters and they'll indeed shoot them down.

Second thing of note is its maneuverability special.  Unlike the regular Manta's Burn Drive, the Manta(M)'s drive has two charges, lasts a shorter amount of time, allows for a little bit of turning during the burn, and allows the Manta to keep shields on while in use.  The last point is neat as it's insurance against getting an unlucky rocket or EMP blast to the face while in transit, which can otherwise be fatal.  When player controlled, I'd say that the Manta(M) handles much better than the regular Manta simply due to that.

The PD is kind of for missile and fighter defense, but it's also for making the most out of targets of opportunity: Stranded frigates/Destroyers.  Burn directly into them, overwhelm their shields with ballistic fire, de-teeth them with the ion cannons, and finish with the Crossbows.  If the Crossbows hit, a frigate is probably dead and a DD (or most cruisers) is seriously hurting, and is vulnerable to follow-ups from others in the fleet due to disabled systems by the ion cannon.

If no such target of opportunity currently exists, though, you can still harass near-peer Destroyers with Railguns + Ion Cannons + Bombers without charging into the opponent's battle lines.

The Manta(M) still sucks at doing much to heavy DDs and higher, at least not alone.  There are some exceptions though: I've been able to take out Disassemble Reassemble's Barricade combat freighter which is cruiser-sized.  Granted it's a combat freighter, but I still think it's not bad considering the Barricade has 2 fighter slots and the Manta(M) has only 4 or 5 small hardpoints available at any one time outside of point blank range.

I definitely wouldn't deploy it first in a huge battle dominated by capital ships, but it's definitely going to see use in pursuit settings.  It's my favorite small ship to come out of this mod.
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lethargie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2019, 05:48:20 AM »

I wanted to say that it didn't increase DP cost too, but I don't have the most current Mayasuran version yet so I don't know if that since changed or if my unreliable memory is completely off in the first place.

IIRC, the Mayasuran "elite" ships (don't recall the actual designation) have small stat buffs compared to the base variants at the cost of increase in logistic costs, specifically supplies.  I believe it works similarly in other mods like SWP's Cabal Ships, and the mods of a few others that contain "elite" versions.

Even Vanilla has some of this with their "elites" being Hegemony XIV versions of some ships, whose buffs include flux dissipation, capacity, and especially Armor.  Except instead of a higher logistics cost, those are marginally slower than the base versions.  That speed penalty is supposed to be the countermeasure, I suppose.  But really, who chooses an Onslaught XIV for speed anyways?

[Just downloaded the newest version of Mayasuran Navy now.  I can confirm, that the increase in supply/deployment cost from the Mayasuran Prime thing does NOT increase DP combat "width".]

Balance trade-off is certainly a subjective thing and I would not want to argue about the value of speed vs armor vs etc.... That being said Supply cost is not in any way shape or form a countermeasure to any kind of in combat bonus. It is nil, neglectable and forgettable. If what you say about mayasuran ship is true, they have increased stats with absolutely no downside. Thus its not a discussion about balance, its a discussion about whether vanilla ship should receive boost without trade-off. Now I understand that some vanilla ship are stronger than other, but generally there is no "copy but stronger".

Supply consumption is a fun campaign specific mechanic that does improve the general feeling of the games and allow to link a bit more different parts of the game. I appreciate that it was added, It's just not a meaningful variable for the balance of the ships.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #192 on: May 09, 2019, 08:26:07 AM »

Well it kinds of become a significant balancing factor when you maxed out your deployment points. And in the early game it is important too until you can get that money snowball rolling. In mid game though it is indeed irrelevant.
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SapphireSage

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #193 on: May 09, 2019, 12:13:19 PM »

Though I do agree that DP is just about the only significant balancing factor late game, that only applies if the DP is adjusted. I just downloaded the current Mayasuran Navy version to test and was able to verify, using Console Commands, that Mayasuran ships do not raise the DP cost of ships with the Mayasuran Prime Warship hullmod as they should.

This means that in the endgame, Mayasuran ships are straight upgrades compared to vanilla mid-line combat wise. The problem may have to do with the D-mod changes as they are also hullmods that affect supply recovery costs while not touching DP cost.

The attached pictures are proof after using console commands and running SIM that DP cost is unaffected.

[attachment deleted by admin]
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lethargie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #194 on: May 10, 2019, 10:03:45 AM »

Though I do agree that DP is just about the only significant balancing factor late game, that only applies if the DP is adjusted. I just downloaded the current Mayasuran Navy version to test and was able to verify, using Console Commands, that Mayasuran ships do not raise the DP cost of ships with the Mayasuran Prime Warship hullmod as they should.
The attached pictures are proof after using console commands and running SIM that DP cost is unaffected.
Well it kinds of become a significant balancing factor when you maxed out your deployment points. And in the early game it is important too until you can get that money snowball rolling. In mid game though it is indeed irrelevant.
So I realize Tartiflette comment might have been a misunderstanding. What SaphirreSage said is true but had been established earlier in the thread (but not as extensively proven). Is there an established nomenclature which I may have misused about the present subject?
to reiterate:
Supply cost: Cost paid after the battle to recuperate CR (Irrelevant to balance)
Deployment cost: "space" taken by the ship on the deployment screen (Extremely relevant to balance)

So (M) version of normal ship have supply cost penalty but no Deployment cost penalty. This makes them straight upgrade over several vanilla ship.

Now I don't think this it is inherently bad, but it does make the (M) version like an inverse D-Mod. It is a dangerous slope for balance at least. The hull are rare enough that it doesn't matter too much for now at least.
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