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Author Topic: [0.97a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (Thumper Ed., 0.3.7b)  (Read 632408 times)

King Alfonzo

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (Tweaks Ed., 0.2.2g)
« Reply #240 on: April 05, 2020, 06:50:14 PM »

Many, many thanks for the review Helmut! I feel you captured the general playstyle of HMI Junkers - cheap, dirty crap that you can keep throwing at the enemy in huge numbers, not caring about casualties as long as you win. The idea that Junkers 'run on meat and not supplies' in many regards encapsulates the feel of this faction; that the crew are simply cogs in an industrial machine that you can throw away without needing to spend precious money on supplies.

In regards to their not being a fast enough ship in the Junker fleets to catch kiters - that's a fair cop, and I'll tweak some of the speed stats (particularly for the Creep, Streak and Convict) to be a tiny bit quicker.

I apologize for the Fishkill not appearing, but that ship was deliberately made rare because it is a very strong ship. That and HMI's industry is pretty dodgy to begin with, so they struggle to make it.

I'm glad you enjoyed playing the Junker aspect of the mod, and really really appreciated the playstyle. I'm also glad you've had fun with the secret content - I had a lot of fun making and writing it, and I hope to eventually do more in the future - except maybe in a different mod altogether. I apologize for the mod being overly demanding - I feel at some point I added a bit too much to the mod, but now everything's put together I can't exactly tease it apart.

Again, thanks for the review Helmut!

HELMUT

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (Tweaks Ed., 0.2.2g)
« Reply #241 on: April 06, 2020, 02:29:42 AM »

I also forgot to mention something important considering the Junkers. The Rapid Repair system is i think their weakest point gameplay wise. It tends to completely invalidate EMP, flameouts and hullmods that are supposed to protect/repair against malfunctions. It's like a whole part of the game mechanics doesn't apply to them, which is a shame. I think they could become much more interesting with other systems, even simple ones like burn drive (which would help against kiting too). And it's not like they can't afford to add Automated Repair Unit to compensate for the loss of RR either.

The whole Junker fleet concept is fun, but the piloting is very similar from one ship to another because of RR (with a few exceptions), and it can become a bit boring after a while. I personally wish to see something more interesting in that regard.


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King Alfonzo

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (Tweaks Ed., 0.2.2g)
« Reply #242 on: April 06, 2020, 07:57:39 PM »

I also forgot to mention something important considering the Junkers. The Rapid Repair system is i think their weakest point gameplay wise. It tends to completely invalidate EMP, flameouts and hullmods that are supposed to protect/repair against malfunctions. It's like a whole part of the game mechanics doesn't apply to them, which is a shame. I think they could become much more interesting with other systems, even simple ones like burn drive (which would help against kiting too). And it's not like they can't afford to add Automated Repair Unit to compensate for the loss of RR either.

The whole Junker fleet concept is fun, but the piloting is very similar from one ship to another because of RR (with a few exceptions), and it can become a bit boring after a while. I personally wish to see something more interesting in that regard.

One of the things I discovered during early play testing is that large shield-less ships suffer disproportionately from EMP and weapon damage. I'm not talking about temporarily being disadvantaged from losing one or two weapons, I'm talking about ships losing their entire weapons complement from even middling attacks, and being completely shut down by fighters or heavy combat very quickly. Further, when the disabled weapons turned back on, they'd immediately be turned back off very easily in heavy combat situations. Even with Automatic Repair and Armoured Weapon Mounts, it's still ridiculously easy to cripple a Junker ship, and then you have to chew through the hull of the now deactivated hulk without suffering any of the danger. I found that fighting against these ships was boring, and using these ships personally was frustrating. Further, it didn't fit with my vision of how these ships were supposed to be used - send into combat and watch them chew themselves out, refusing to die without first taking a few enemy ships with them.

I considered a hull-repair system and a lesser damper field system to mitigate this problem, before settling on Rapid Repair. Rapid Repair largely solved the issue - it became a lot more difficult to 'stun-lock' a Junker as they could turn their weapons back on under withering fire, and give them a grace period to hurt or push back the enemy where their weapons cannot be brought down. I do acknowledge that in its initial form beginning the Rapid Repair was far too OP, as it was very easy to just keep pressing the RR button under heavy fire, so I changed it in the beta to be more limited when the Rapid Repair becomes available. This ensured that you could use the system in emergencies or when you know you're about to enter into heavy combat, without granting the ship weapon and engine immortality. While these ships would be more interesting with burn drive or accelerated ammo feeder etc., I feel that you couldn't run them with other systems without the entire ship concept falling apart.

However, it may be that rapid repair is still a bit too powerful for what it does, so I'll experiment with making the cool down longer on the system, so it's use is more confined to emergencies. I may also look into making rapid repair a right-click system when the ship doesn't have a shield installed, and giving the ships more conventional ship systems to keep them interesting, although I'm unsure that my coding skills are good enough to pull this off.

King Alfonzo

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #243 on: April 12, 2020, 11:05:13 PM »

NEW UPDATE, NOT SAVEGAME COMPATIBLE.

This update is a MAJOR overhaul of just about every feature of the HMI mod. Countless things have been tweaked and messed with, and to list them would be a collosal pain in the neck, but the major changes are as follows:

-There is now a settings file.
-There are new Junker hulls, along with new ships that HMI has ''''discovered'''' and put into production - although how well they constructed these hulls is in severe doubt. Check out the first page for more information.
-Junker Hulls now lack the Rapid Repair system (besides the Junk and Fishkill), instead having a passive hullmod that increases engine and weapon repair rate if the ship does not have a shield installed.
-The Junker Hullmod now has greater maluses for using Extreme Ordinance, and has different maluses to fighters at higher d-mod levels.
-The (Scav) hulls have been removed from all the factions, and transferred to a new faction: the Brighton Federation. The spawning of this faction can be turned off in the settings file.
-Fang and Draco factions have been reworked - Fang ships lack shields but receive buffs to enable them to remain competitive despite this, and Draco ships have poor shield efficiency and range but good movement and vent stats. Both factions make bases and raid the sector - this feature can be turned off with the settings file.
-New stuff to stumble on out in the sector. Note, stumble upon - you don't need a mission to activate HMI content, you just need to find it.

DOWNLOAD HERE

ShadowDragon8685

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #244 on: April 14, 2020, 03:17:46 PM »

HMI is...

Well, in a word, fantastic.

But, if I might;

The HMI-added resources seem to only exist to be smuggled for credits (or exported for same, if you happen to seize the systems where they're produced.)

I would really like for them to have a purpose for the player other than just getting credits, and preferably this wouldn't require building all-new industries, etc, that inevitably wind up competing with the player's existing industry slots from both vanilla and half a dozen other mods. Preferably they could be used to enhance vanilla functions somehow.

Quantum Liquid: This one's a bit tricky, since there isn't really anything the player can do in terms of research & development. The only vanilla activity I can think of that it might enhance somehow is techmining; with quantum liquid to supercharge the computers crunching through and trying to restore all those wrecked data systems, results that otherwise would take until the heat-death of the universe become potentially plausible; perhaps, then, quantum liquid will let a techmining industry run without depleting itself, or run normally if it already has?

Nanite Mass: This seems simple enough, since nanite mass is said to allow for one-time construction of any theoretical component, there's a lot of potential uses for it, which would surely be asinine to code. My suggestions would be:

1: Allows the player the duplicate any one piece of hardware they have an example of and want more of. Uses equivalent cost in nanite mass (rounded up; minimum 1 unit of mass), or perhaps twice that?

2: Allow the player to expedite buildings or industries on their colonies, at great expense in nanite mass. Something like being able to cut the construction time in half, by paying in up to the construction's cost worth of nanite mass to add one-half that value in progress to the construction timer.

3: Feedstock for Heavy and Light Industries, covering resource shortfalls?

Red Water: Honestly, it should just fill the need for recreational drugs. But given what it says it does instead, perhaps instead of fulfilling that need, it grands industries a production bonus, at the drawback of stability - everyone gets inspired to work real hard when on the red water, but being tormented by the demons of their past isn't exactly great for a harmonious dinnertime conversation.
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Drazhya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #245 on: April 19, 2020, 08:25:34 AM »

Is there something wrong with the Ionos? Ordnance and armor are about destroyer-average, flux cap/dissipation/speed are about cruiser-average, hull points are somewhere between the two. Cargo and fuel capacity are minimal, no innate hull mods. High Energy Focus and it's shield efficiency is good, that's the only thing even above-cruiser-average for this 22-point cruiser. It's garbage. One-for-one, the Falcon might be better, and it's 15 points.

100 ordnance points. Only dedicated carriers and logistics ships (and built-in artillery ships like Tiandong's Wuzhang and Torchships' High-Tide) get that low.
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PainProjection

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #246 on: April 20, 2020, 04:02:19 AM »

No changes for Junk : (
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Alluvian

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #247 on: April 20, 2020, 06:30:45 AM »

Quite enjoying this mod, and the updates you have made thus far. In particular, I am very fond of the low-tech look and feel of the ships, as well as the various hazards (pun intended) you have also built in. The three hostile factions you have included with the mod are quite interesting, covering a nice niche (bio-engineering / horror) in a way that is a good fit for Starsector. The Mess in particular, is a nice counterpart to the Remnant & Derelict threats of a similar vein.

One question at this time: While the Mess is clearly intended as a hostile NPC faction, do you have any intent to expand the Draco / Fang factions in a fashion to flesh them out more and make them playable in Nexerelin?

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Weltall

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #248 on: April 20, 2020, 06:45:36 AM »

This is a bit off topic, but is there now a hidden Captain Planet in the modpack?
PS: Do ignore the comment if it makes no sense.
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Drazhya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #249 on: April 20, 2020, 08:35:13 AM »

I do appreciate this mod, but it's the things that don't seem right that have me posting. The Hippocampus(Draco) is another one. The Tempest has 50 ordnance, and Tempest(Draco) has 45. The Hippocampus has 80, and the Hippocampus(Draco) has... 45. And then the Wolf and Vigilance are both set to 45 as well, adding 5 for the Vigilance and losing 10 for the Wolf. Seems like a copy-paste error?

Draco vs vanilla is an interesting tradeoff, particularly (for me) the Tempests. The range difference and loss of the missile slot don't matter for how I build them, but the venting bonus doesn't seem to make a much of a difference in AI hands. The shield efficiency and ordnance loss hurt a lot, but at the end of the day, the reason I keep Tempests around is that they're fast, and the faster, the better. The Draco version has a nice aesthetic too.

The Hippocampus, on the other hand... even if it didn't have the OP penalty, that's a harder trade-off. The extra speed brings them up to fast-cruiser standard, which is at least a little helpful, but not enough to keep them out of trouble, so the shield penalty hurts a lot more, the fighter penalty is very painful, and the range penalty matters more.
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Copperwire

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #250 on: April 21, 2020, 09:50:32 PM »

(oops, posted in the wrong thread)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 12:33:45 AM by Copperwire »
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Agalyon

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #251 on: April 22, 2020, 02:19:08 AM »

I was planning to come in and shower some compliments and make a big write up after using the mod (seriously playing it) for the first time and HELMUT did all that and more. It kinda put what I was going to write to shame, so I think I'll hold off for now until I've tried more of the new April 12th stuff. That being said, I figured I'd jump in on some specific things and the Junk convo.

Just to get this out of the way, I think the Junk's stats are fine for having 5 burn. I honestly hate that 5 burn as much as some other people have posted about, I think messing with that layer of the game is probably not a great idea because most people (including me for transparency) are outright allergic to slow ships. I have to REALLY like something to go down to 7 burn base. That being said, I think minmaxing map layer logistics like fuel and supplies sucks, so I tend to favor stuff having "OP" storage. 5 burn is a huge downside, if it does get nerfed and I don't think it needs one, consider giving it at least 6 burn, especially since it cant use militarized subsystems. Having higher burn and lowered stats I think would be fine too.

Moving on, I love the design of everything in HMI. The lower than low tech feel is great, and I think the junker ships fit perfectly into their role. There have been several attempts to make shieldless ships workable through the years of mods and I think this one finally got it right. They have very clear weaknesses and strengths and the haphazard over saturated weapon mounts are one of the few times overgunning a ship is a good idea. I also love not having to worry about ships dying at all, it fits perfectly into a yellow tree prioritizing playthrough. The scavanged drone ships are also great, I was wondering when someone would use that idea. It fits perfectly with the image of a low tech faction struggling to make ends meet economically and field fleets.

Regarding weapons, again, I really like the themes of most of them. Cheap, user friendly weapons are a welcome addition that stand out even among most other mods. While some of them do seem a little too close to their vanilla inspiration, I don't think that necessarily a bad thing. Side grades can be good, especially if what they're based on has some glaring flaws. I do think some might need some help especially compared to their vanilla counterpart.

The Pummeler carbine I think could do with some soft stats like projectile speed to define its role a bit better, especially considering the lower projectile damage than Thumpers making it even worse against armor. The Williamson shotgun is similar, its lowered per-hit damage makes it hard to justify over an auto cannon especially considering the negative flux ratio. For example the Anderson MG is great, it feels very distinct but still grounded and balanced. The McGuyver mining laser probably needs at least slightly positive flux ratio to reward its close range as well.

Some things definitely feel off though, like Mbeke rockets and the Mark IV cannon. The rockets REALLY need some more ammo to fill out their low damage. They're presented as just being outdated rather than inferior, but their performance is kneecapped by their tiny potential damage. If they aren't going to be dirt cheap on OP, I think having a lot more ammo would go a long way. The Mark IV I love in concept but I don't feel like it ever justifies usage. Unless I'm missing something, this one in particular really just seems bad to me. The slight OP cost reduction over a Mark IX never feels worth it, even under ideal conditions like mounting them en masse to get the most out of expanded magazines. The cost of expanded magazines outweighs their OP cost, not including the range cut and having less than half the per-hit damage. It sounds silly at first, but its a huge difference against armor with massed fire, and if you're only mounting a single kinetic weapon its no contest. Its also called a strike weapon in its desc but fires pretty much continually with expanded mags. I think it should be at least noticeably better than a Mark IX if you're using expanded mags.

I'm not sure what direction you want to take all this stuff in (I know its okay for something to just be worse than vanilla) but I hope you'll tinker with the weapons somewhat. Most of them have enough nuance that I always consider using them in place of something else, and stuff that uses expanded mags well is rare enough that I want to see it shine.

[EDIT] I did some fiddling just for fun with the Mark IV and came to 381(288) dps with 160 damage, 8 ammo, 12 reload, 1.8 ammo/sec, 0.32 cool down. That might be a bit high but its easy to fiddle with. It also has a longer cooldown between bursts for a more strikey feel. Please don't take this as imposing, I was more doing it for my own testing and figured I might as well post it.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 03:55:22 AM by HeartofDiscord »
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PainProjection

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #252 on: April 23, 2020, 10:02:06 AM »


Just to get this out of the way, I think the Junk's stats are fine for having 5 burn. I honestly hate that 5 burn as much as some other people have posted about, I think messing with that layer of the game is probably not a great idea because most people (including me for transparency) are outright allergic to slow ships. I have to REALLY like something to go down to 7 burn base. That being said, I think minmaxing map layer logistics like fuel and supplies sucks, so I tend to favor stuff having "OP" storage. 5 burn is a huge downside, if it does get nerfed and I don't think it needs one, consider giving it at least 6 burn, especially since it cant use militarized subsystems. Having higher burn and lowered stats I think would be fine too.


Take another look at my suggestion:

-Junk should have "Compromised Storage" by default. Like ludds ships have "Ill-Advised Modifications" even if it been manufactured from your own heavy industry, it still can be restored for additional credit investment ofcource.

-Junk should have "Civilian-grade Hull" hullmod. It would make sence cause "Compromised Storage" cannot appear on non-civilian ships and also allow player to use "Militarised Subsystems" on it.

-Junk's burn speed must be reduced from 5 to 4 (Can be restored with "Militarised Subsystems").

-Junk's maximum crew decreaced from 2000 to 1200 (This is important, cause with "Compromised Storage" D-mod it would go down to 840)

-Junk's skeleton crew decreaced from 500 to 320 ("Militarised Subsystems" doubles skeleton crew so you still can use it with "Compromised Storage")

-Junk's fuel capacity decreaced from 2000 to 800  which is level of Prometheus II - max for vanilla's non tanker ship

-Junk should no longer have shield and recieve +50% of flux vent stats effectively making "Shield Bypass" hull mod from S&Wpack as built in. (i explained why in separate post)

What i suggest is actually a buff, i see Junk in two separate loadouts: Miner and Combatant.

Current problem is what you can fit it as combatant and still benefit from enormous storage, fuel capacity and spare crew space. At the same time combatant stays at the edge of being good and completely suck. It highly relies on player perks/skilled officer to be effective so it need a slight buff to it's combat stats, which "Militarised Subsytems" just provide.
I want this 2 builds to be more separate, you should use it as 100% mining barge fitted with Xi Large mining collectors, Maglev mining generators and with Hammer Barrage in it's large missle slot OR as pure combat ship with some additional cargo as bonus.

My rework idea based around "Compromised Storage" D-mod and "Civilian-grade Hull"/"Militarised subsystems hullmods.

If you planning to use it as combatant you most probably never gonna restore "Compromised Storage" since this D-mod belong to "magnificent 5" group of D-Mods what doesn't change expluatation costs, but at the same time doesn't corrupt any important in-combat stats. The secret is what other 3 of these "magnificent 5" (malfunctioning comms, defective manufactury and damaged flight deck) is fighter based ones - they can appear on Junk, because it have some Hangar Bays, but at the same time Junk clearly not a carrier and never rely on it's fighters. I literally put in his bays 0OP mining drones to use them as additional projectile catchers, thats about it. In my playthrough i replaced "Compromised Storage" to "Unreliable Subsystems" so there is still a breathing room, because you only need 4 D-mods to reach full "Junker's" perk potential (maximum additional ordnance points).

At the same time what about maximum crew nerf from 2000 to 1200? Idea is simple, you need spare crew because mining consumes some, alongside with heavy machinery and supplies. You don't really need that many for battle, few hundreds for in-combat casualties is enough. With "Compromised Storage" 1200 goes down to 840, "Militarised Subsystems" doubles skeleton crew from 320 to 640 effectively left us 200 crew members for in-combat casualties from hull damage. There is even more (380) if you have "Safety Procedures 3".

Last, but not least - fuel ammount down from 2000 to 800. Again, for mining 800 is more than enough to supply not only the  Junk itself, but even a small fleet of auxilary miners/protectiong ships/cargo freighters, if you, for some reason, want to fly at the edge of the map to mine there - you can buy more specialised ships for your needs (tankers).

Now you start to understand? As combatant Junk will recieve slight nerf to it's logistic stats (-30% or -15% if you have "Sefety Procedures 3" Skill), but would you really care? You wanted combat battleship, you get it, as bonus here couple thousands of additional cargo - nice. But "Militarised Subsystems" would actually noticebly buff it's in-combat performance. Don't forget what my meme-vid based on lvl103 pilot what have all the perks, but, let be honest, without "Skilled-Up" mod you have tought decisions, as you mentioned in your post - this faction highly benefits from yellow skill tree. You also need skills for -25% fuel and supply consumption. So you can't just have every combat-related skill at this point even at max level and thats why Junk needs a buff.

"Militarised Subsystems" provide such buff
Apart from removing the penalties from a civilian-grade hull, and increacing maximum burn level by 1 (remember why base burn level should be decreaced by 1?) and reducing supply and combat readiness cost to recover from a deployment by 30% it will also:
-Increases armour by percentage 25/30/35/45
-Increases flux capacity & dissipation by 10%
-Increases max speed, acceleration, deceleration, max turn rate & turn acceleration by 10%
All these stats is very important for him, it have thin 500 armor, bad flux stats and horrible engine perfomance.

Additionally, if you planning to use Junk as mining barge then you should invest additional credits to remove "Compromised Storage" which is totally right thing because Junk the best or one of the best miners in entire modded game with possibility to turn it in to your flagship, but it's dirt-cheap vessel which is not right. It will pay for himself after few mining runs full of volatiles.


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Drazhya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #253 on: April 23, 2020, 11:11:48 PM »

...Okay, so I was having a great time fighting Draco and Fang... and then I got a blood harvest. Draco base 45 light-years away hitting my colonies with -3 stability and -50% accessibility. Stacking with pirate debuff. Isn't that a bit much?
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Agalyon

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hazard Mining Incorporated (THE POWER IS YOURS! Ed., 0.3.1)
« Reply #254 on: April 24, 2020, 01:22:15 AM »

I absolutely refuse to play with a max level cap because it results in there being exactly one optimal skill set for every play through, hence the yellow and red trees being all but ignored. The 103 captain meme video is funny but I'm not really sure its hugely indicative of anything as lots of ships become disgusting with that level of investment, and all in capitals tend to hard counter any other caps they beat in stats. They haven't been a problem at all in my game and I imagine heavy fighters would eat them alive. I do think SOMETHING needs to be done about EMP/weapon damage, as making it outright immune is probably the source of many of these problems. Without that protection EMP will destroy them, but maybe something that precludes other EMP resistance would be good and rapid repairs could instead put a cooldown on having weapons disabled, so it still resists EMP like anything else building for it, but can't be locked forever by EMP. That way it could still be hit with EMP for plays but not shut down entirely.

Also, I'm pretty sure if it has 4 burn literally no one will use it. Keep in mind with militarized and aug burn drives it no has 0 logistics slots left. I really think most people will just see 4 burn and immediately trash can it without even considering options that point. Remember that burn as a mechanic is mostly untouched or raised/lowered by 1 in extreme cases, and its already lowered by 1 here. Every point of burn lowered is 2 at full burn and none of this has an effect on combat, which seems to the source of the problems in question.

Consider this, how much storage would it take for you to be willing to go to 3 burn, or 2? Is there ever a point it doesn't matter how much storage something has, its just no longer worth dealing with because its too much of a pain? Normally you only go to 6 for capitals, something you only take to win fights, and only if you're planning on fight. Even an atlas hits 7 easily, and some capitals have 8 base, which is a common value lots of things share. 7 and 8 burn are nice because LOTS of stuff has those burn values. The next thing to consider is that going to means you probably only have one, maybe two types of ships with those burn values, so you likely want several of them. Now consider that for most people, the Junk is one of the only ships in the entire game with 5 burn as it is now, so you have exactly more Junk to efficiently fill your fleet with. Going even lower than that is insane, it will be literally the only ship in the whole modiverse with burn that low.

If stats need to come out of somewhere burn isn't it. The compromised storage idea is interesting and may be the best solution. Keep in mind lowering fuel cap and the compromised storage would be extra rough, and that all these problems and low burn speed actually increase maintenance costs and decrease map range by proxy. Also no way to fit eff overhaul because you have no logistic slots. A combat nerf may be a better solution, but that would take the ship in a different direction.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 01:36:15 AM by HeartofDiscord »
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