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Author Topic: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes  (Read 236610 times)

Thana

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #405 on: March 20, 2012, 12:40:57 PM »

1.) I do not wish to sacrifice balance or fun in the name of complexity and realism. A lot of what I see debated on these forums is placing a heavy emphasis on "realism," which makes me slightly worried that the end result will be less fun. There is a balance to be struck here, but first and foremost this is a "game."

For instance, I find the idea of sleek, fast, yet devastating vaguely plane-shaped space fighters to be "fun," opening up new strategies and avenues of attack while making people make loadout decisions to deal with them. Yet, these fighters are hardly "realistic." Also, I enjoy the possibility that, for instance, low-tech ships would be balanced and able to stand up to high-tech ones, even though this doesn't always work out in the real world. It makes for good gameplay.

People's discussion in the absence of new developments, blogposts or releases aside, there seems to be around zero basis to believe that Alex and co. are about to start making Starfarer more complex than it needs to, rife with micro-management or purposefully unbalanced. If anything, the reverse seems to be true: while the game doesn't have a tongue-in-cheek tone (thank potential deity, since I tend to find it annoying and more often than not, seems to be used as an excuse by the devs not to have to polish their game) and it aims for an atmosphere of general plausibility, that doesn't ever seem to override issues of balance or fun.

As for the low-tech versus high-tech ships, I do think there is a legitimate reason to have high-tech ships be generally superior - it gives the player the choice whether to have a larger fleet of cheaper but individually less capable ships or take the relatively high-risk-high-payoff way of individually more capable ships that, if lost, are costlier to replace. What's more, it gives different factions a different character in combat through their different ship designs and weapon load-outs. So long as the high-tech ships aren't too much better - and I think the last release addressed some of the outstanding issues in that regard - having different tech levels available is a net benefit or the game.

(More personally: all else being equal, I prefer plausibility. However, while there are things in Starfarer that, looked at more closely, fail a reality check, the bottom line is that the game is awesome and the combination of genre and feel of the game make me more than happy with the balance they've struck. And so far as I can tell, it boils down to "design a great game, then rationalise the design choices in terms of lore afterwards where practical" most of the time. The carrier mechanics are an example of where they've explicitly stated that yeah, the way it works in the game doesn't make sense in-character but provides the best gameplay they've managed to come up with. And besides, I don't think space combat being a matter of autonomous kill drones and relativistic kinetic projectiles launched from a distance calculated in AUs would make for a particularly interesting game despite being probably the most realistic scenario.)

2.) This gets into my second point. Too many rules and too many systems can get in the way of enjoyment of the gameplay. I've played a few tabletop wargames and more than a few indie games that fell off the deep end in this regard.

It creates a fantastically steep learning curve that makes it very difficult for people to get into the game, and (more importantly right now) can divide up development time. Plus, it can be just unwieldy.

Really, I'm not "against" ground combat. I just think it's hardly a priority in a game that's so heavily based on space combat, and I would much rather see said space combat be the absolute best and most fun it can be before tacking on additional systems and complexity.

Seriously, I don't think you need to be worried about this. Alex and co. have, if anything, a record of streamlining absolutely everything they can so long as it doesn't result in shallow gameplay. For instance, the abstraction of all the ammo, repair materials and so on into a generic "supplies" cargo type, the way carriers work in the game at the moment, the standardisation of weapons into four damage types (kinetic, high explosive, energy and fragmentation) each with significant differences rather than a collection of slightly different unique weapon effects, the way weapon and engine damage works in the game and so on. I think you need not worry that Starfarer is going to go the Dwarf Fortress here. If anything, I'd compare it to World of Tanks - extremely simple to pick up, but with plenty of stuff going on beneath the surface so that there's room to improve and the game isn't too shallow. It's a great balance for this kind of action game.

Given the game has troop transports, I'm sure Alex has some plans for some kind of conquest being included. Whether that includes planetary invasion or only taking over space stations remains to be seen.



P.S. I don't think this has anything to do with the 0.51a release anymore and might be better off in a new thread in the General Discussion area.
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Iscariot

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #406 on: March 20, 2012, 03:54:19 PM »

Bah, Thana stole all I meant to say.

Except that I think being able to turn your prow in any direction you want without having to change heading is way more interesting-- and ooooh, realistic-- than stupid space planes. Luckily, we've got that.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Nanostrike

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #407 on: March 20, 2012, 10:57:23 PM »

With the current "Low Tech vs High Tech" situation, it's a bit biased.

Because currently, the "High Tech" has almost exclusively Fast Attack and Strike ships, while the Low-Tech has almost exclusively Balanced or Assault-focused ships.  The imbalance is really significant at the Frigate and Destroyer levels.

High-Tech:
Medusa - Fast Attack Destroyer
Buffalo - Freighter

Wolf - Balanced Frigate
Tempest - Fast Attack Frigate
Hyperion - Fast Strike Frigate
Omen - Fast Point Defense Frigate


Low-Tech:
Buffalo MK II -Outdated Fire Support Destroyer
Enforcer - Assault Destroyer
Condor - Fire Support Carrier
Tarsus - Freighter

Hound - Outdated Fast Attack Frigate
Brawler - SLOW Assault Frigate
Lasher - Balanced Frigate
Dram - Tanker


Midline:
Hammerhead - Assault Destroyer
Sunder - Close Support Destroyer
Gemini - Freighter/Carrier
Valkyrie - Troop Transport

Vigilance - Balanced Frigate
Shuttle - Balanced Frigate


As you can see, there aren't any real "Fast Attack" ships in the low-tech or midline areas yet.  And there aren't any slower "Assault" ships in the high-tech.  And since, on average, Fast Attack ships can out maneuver, out point-control, and outlast most Assault and Balanced ships, it gives High-Tech a huge edge.  There's currently nothing that can rival the firepower/speed combo that Tempests and Medusas have.  And there really needs to be.  I wanna see people debating about "Tempests vs *Insert fast low-tech ship here*" for which Fast Attack ship they prefer, with each one having tradeoffs.  There shouldn't be any ship that is "Total crap" or any ship that's "The Best, period", IMO.  Just a couple examples...

Maybe a low-tech fast-attack ship has incredible speed like the Tempest, but is less maneuverable and has a lot of forward-locked hardpoint mounts instead of turrets.  It can carry more weapons and has better armor than the Tempest, but can't spin around and circle-strafe very easily.  Make it be a ship that focuses on "Making passes" like fighters because it's slow to turn.  It'd get a reputation as "Powerful, but hard to control".  It doesn't make the Tempest no longer a great ship.  It just gives it a rival.

Or a jury-rigged Pirate Fast Attack Frigate that packs insane firepower and speed, but has weak shielding/armor and has a hull more fragile than even the Tempest due to shoddy construction.  A true "Glass Cannon"

Or a Midline Fast-Attack ship that has a unique shape and an odd balancing of Ballistic and Energy weapon slots.  Give it a unique quirk like an oversized Weapon Slot, or a weapon slot in an odd, but useful orientation (Rear-firing missiles, perhaps?).



I'm not saying make everything the same.  I'm just saying that we need some more ships of each role on each side to balance it out.   Fast Attack Low-Tech ships that have skimpy shields and armor, but fast speed and good weapon hardpoints.  Assault High-Tech ships that are only average-speed, but have extremely good venting, efficient shields, good strafing ability, and more weapon hardpoints than turrets.  High-Tech carriers.  Midline carriers.  Just tons more ships in general.

Once each tech level has multiple ships in each size for each role, THEN we can look at balance.  But currently, it's really hard to compare a high-tech "Fast Attack Frigate" to anything "Fast Attack" that the low-tech can muster right now, simply because the low-tech stuff doesn't have anything designed for Fast Attack yet.
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eirikrr

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #408 on: March 21, 2012, 12:53:52 AM »

awesomely said! I totaly agree with what Nanostrike said.
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Timasaurus 007

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #409 on: March 21, 2012, 01:09:28 AM »

Hey i'm a bit new but when do ou guys think the new update will be out?

I love the game but I feel it deserves more of a community (it would definetly help)
I though since TB did a video on Starfarer it would have like thousands upon thousands of players :(

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Steven Shi

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #410 on: March 21, 2012, 09:10:37 AM »

Unfortunately single player games don't lend itself quickly to large communities like Minecraft. If this is a DOTA game, the player base would be far more active online for example.

Keep in mind the game is still in Alpha with only combat mechanics and limited modding option. As the game development progresses and the sandbox option becomes available, expect the community to grow exponentially.
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Nanostrike

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #411 on: March 21, 2012, 02:24:32 PM »

Unfortunately single player games don't lend itself quickly to large communities like Minecraft. If this is a DOTA game, the player base would be far more active online for example.

Keep in mind the game is still in Alpha with only combat mechanics and limited modding option. As the game development progresses and the sandbox option becomes available, expect the community to grow exponentially.

I've seen both the Minecraft and DOTA communities.  Frankly, I'm VERY glad that this game isn't attracting people like that.
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icepick37

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #412 on: March 21, 2012, 02:26:11 PM »

Amen to that.  :)
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“I [may] not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
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vmxa

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #413 on: March 21, 2012, 02:39:03 PM »

Not familiar with those communities. If they are half as bad as League of Legends communities, that would be bad.
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Nori

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #414 on: March 21, 2012, 03:34:51 PM »

I've seen both the Minecraft and DOTA communities.  Frankly, I'm VERY glad that this game isn't attracting people like that.

:P  Certain parts of the Minecraft community isn't bad. For instance the Bukkit people... I frequent their forum and think that they are a decent group. However, the official MC forums are rife with entitiled 10 year olds...  :)

Original DotA community is vicious to be sure... I'm in the DOTA 2 beta though and so far the people have been pretty civil. Time will tell though.
Anyone here play the DOTA 2 beta?
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Anysy

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #415 on: March 21, 2012, 05:27:49 PM »

Unfortunately single player games don't lend itself quickly to large communities like Minecraft. If this is a DOTA game, the player base would be far more active online for example.

Keep in mind the game is still in Alpha with only combat mechanics and limited modding option. As the game development progresses and the sandbox option becomes available, expect the community to grow exponentially.

I've seen both the Minecraft and DOTA communities.  Frankly, I'm VERY glad that this game isn't attracting people like that.
as a member of the League(of legends) community... Yeah. Lets not attract that.
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factotum

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #416 on: March 22, 2012, 12:57:23 AM »

High-Tech:
Buffalo - Freighter

Low-Tech:
Buffalo MK II -Outdated Fire Support Destroyer

How does the Buffalo class as high-tech while the Buffalo Mk II (which is a refit of the same ship) come out as low?  ???
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Tarran

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #417 on: March 22, 2012, 01:49:07 AM »

Obviously in the past they copied the blueprints from in the future and made a variant before the original one was even thought of.
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Anysy

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #418 on: March 22, 2012, 04:14:51 AM »

Probably something along the lines of *guy points at shield generator* "Hey, anyone know what this piece of junk does?" 'nope' *guy rips out shield generator*
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evil713

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Re: Starfarer 0.51a (Released) - Live Patch Notes
« Reply #419 on: March 23, 2012, 12:31:42 AM »

Modding a cargo ship is probily lots easier than modding a warship. Cargobays are essentially empty rooms. AC-130 is essentially a modded cargo plane.
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