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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - *hotfix* 4/14/22  (Read 722347 times)

Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1725 on: February 01, 2022, 09:47:38 AM »

@Albreo

As far as composite/synergy mounts, I might do that for a couple of ships where it fits thematically. The Hivemind is definitely tankier now I just have to find the right burst size.

I too notice the AIs stubborness at using the Cloudburst. I will probably increase the range to 1500 or 1800 similar to where the Squall currently is at.

The Hurricane (and Thunderbolt) now has a much higher secondary stage speed and its arc spread is more designed to spread around the ship rather than simply spread out to avoid concentrated pd. I've also increased the Hurricanes damage per each secondary missile by 50% so it destroys armor a lot better around the ship. Its also durable enough to reliably hit each time unless the first stage missile collides with something.

The Thunderbolt is more mitigatable by larger pd, but its still pretty reliable now even in larger fights. To offset this I reduced the EMP component by half and changed the medium and large versions to be less spammable. I cant remember if I also increased flux costs but I probably did. That said, the AI is more than willing to use it on cooldown in the situations I've tested.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1726 on: February 01, 2022, 01:43:51 PM »

The mini-missile also doesn't look imposing, unbefitting large weapon. If you could make the white trail slimmer plus more prominent and the speed extremely quick. It would look cooler.
Fury flux cost is a tad bit too high IMO. I tried using it a few times and it doesn't worth it.

I made the Hurricane second stage and the Firestorm use red engines to make them more distinct and menacing. They also move a lot faster. The change better indicates to the player intuitively that these are heavy hitting anti-armor missiles because they look roughly along the same lines as shots from ballistics like the Guillotine and Devastator so there were several different reasons to do this.

If it wasn't so time consuming to make them, post them and link them, etc, I'd make a demonstration video because I think they look really cool now. I'll use the time to continue to balance instead.  :P

I'm surprised you don't like the Fury though. When I test the Executor variants that use them they are very effective especially vs high tech ships. The flux cost is pretty high, true, but until this missile rework it was one of the most reliable rockets available. Even after the missile rework I still think it will be strong.
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1727 on: February 01, 2022, 08:16:13 PM »

If it wasn't so time consuming to make them, post them and link them, etc, I'd make a demonstration video because I think they look really cool now. I'll use the time to continue to balance instead.  :P

There actually a lot of utility programs out there that can capture GIFs directly from the screen. I believe it would be a lot quicker than uploading a video.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1728 on: February 02, 2022, 08:05:05 AM »

There actually a lot of utility programs out there that can capture GIFs directly from the screen. I believe it would be a lot quicker than uploading a video.

Throw one out there and I'll give it a try. I tried Gifcam a while back and wasn't very satisfied with the results.
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1729 on: February 02, 2022, 08:32:10 PM »

I use this one before but I can't find a way to tap into the game screen lol.

https://github.com/NickeManarin/ScreenToGif/releases/tag/2.35.4
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1730 on: February 03, 2022, 11:59:45 AM »

I use this one before but I can't find a way to tap into the game screen lol.

Thats the same problem I have with Obs! It only works sporatically.
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Sutech

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1731 on: February 06, 2022, 09:46:43 AM »

Hi, have a problem with Starship Legends - when i check SS its uncheck Archean and counteractive, in "mods" before i start game, any ideas how to fix?
thx and have nice day.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1732 on: February 06, 2022, 12:36:12 PM »

Hi, have a problem with Starship Legends - when i check SS its uncheck Archean and counteractive, in "mods" before i start game, any ideas how to fix?
thx and have nice day.

Hi!

Check under "Directions to Enable Nexerelin and Other Non-Utility Mods" on the main mod page. That should guide you through enabling more mod merging capability.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1733 on: February 07, 2022, 01:22:22 PM »

Progress update on missiles:

Well, it was as I feared. Buffing missiles' durability has made them extremely dangerous especially when saturating a single target at long range. Here are some pics of the newly updated Hurricane and a showcase of its new power:

Spoiler





[close]

This doesn't really give much indication of the overall speed, so this next set should help clarify a bit:

Spoiler



[close]

 - so even when initially dodged the the secondary missiles have enough tracking and speed to turn around and hit the target very quickly.

Ok, now that I've established the concern and briefly showcased how a lot of changes ended up working to make missiles reliable and deadly, I wanted to take a moment to discuss solutions to preventing them from just being the best weapon type over energy and ballistic weapons. Essentially the problem is two-fold: 1) easily mitigated missiles are technically balanced but unfun and frustrating for the player as a whole, and 2) durable missiles are also frustrating for the player because they lose ships a lot more quickly to LRMs or torpedo spam and can be used to somewhat exploit the AI too easily.

It seemed like a real catch-22 situation at first. Therefore, I decided to approach the problem from a completely different angle and incorporate it into the mod's "ship role system" in a more concrete and obvious way. For those unfamiliar with what I'm referring to, ship roles in the mod are often more strictly defined fleet synergies that have obvious strengths and weaknesses. For example, a fire support artillery ship can support assault ships from a distance very well, but often will struggle with a direct confrontation from an enemy assault ship in return and needs an allied assault ship to support it. Carriers work similarly.

Back to the problem. I have decided that the best way to tackle missile defense is to create a more dedicated support role around it. For those who use or have used Integrated Defense AI in the past, that was a rough first implementation of this idea. Here is the new and hopefully more refined version with a new name that makes it more obvious:

Spoiler

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And finally, a change to Carrier Bays that makes interceptor and fighter-based carriers more appealing in some situations:
Spoiler

[close]

These two new mechanics should ideally come together to make missiles not too scary in every battle whilst simultaneously fleshing out the PD support role a bit. The trick now is making sure that NPC fleets have access to these. Carriers obviously won't need adjustments as plenty of Interceptor-based builds are already in faction fleets. I'll have to slowly build in more builds using the PD support hullmod, however.

Feedback welcome!
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1734 on: February 07, 2022, 08:37:59 PM »

Hurricane's submunition turn rate should be nerfed by a lot. It doesn't look good if it can even turn around to hit the engine. Hopefully, it won't be too effective on a fast smaller ship. You could consider it as a fire support weapon now and bump up the flux/damage ratio to be in line with artillery. Also, do test in presence of interceptors as well.

Torpedo spam is a thing..., well I believe, reducing its charge by half would be a good starter. So, you're going to have to use the hull mod to bump it back up.

Missile interdiction hull mod: No love for beam? I think the damage reduction and flux increase are quite excessive, I can't come to terms with it. I mean it is only supposed to reroute the power. Reduce the fire rate some more instead and maybe prevent the ship from equipping medium size and larger non-PD weapons? Can it be done with Hull mod? For example, double the cost to equip. Or half ship flux pool.

Is it possible to have a missile to missile PD? Will it be too crazy on CPU?

« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 08:23:43 AM by Albreo »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1735 on: February 08, 2022, 12:24:55 PM »

Hurricane's submunition turn rate should be nerfed by a lot. It doesn't look good if it can even turn around to hit the engine. Hopefully, it won't be too effective on a fast smaller ship. You could consider it as a fire support weapon now and bump up the flux/damage ratio to be in line with artillery. Also, do test in presence of interceptors as well.
That might be better as long as it keeps the general look of the weapon. I can then see about changing the AI to use it mostly against non-frigate targets. I definitely plan on testing interceptor carriers a bit more too.

Quote
Torpedo spam is a thing..., well I believe, reducing its charge by half would be a good starter. So, you're going to have to use the hull mod to bump it back up.
Torpedoes are more difficult to spam now- but they hit more reliably and shields are required to tank some damage most of the time. They seem fairly balanced but I haven't tried large fleet engagements yet.

Quote
Missile interdiction hull mod: No love for beam? I think the damage reduction and flux increase are quite excessive, I can't come to terms with it. I mean it is only supposed to reroute the power. Reduce the fire rate some more instead and maybe prevent the ship from equipping medium size and larger non-PD weapons? Can it be done with Hull mod? For example, double the cost to equip. Or half ship flux pool.
PD beams are already boosted by Advanced Optics with its own set of downsides as a result. PD beams are also generally really good against missiles to begin with - though I may have that hullmod boost their damage to missiles a bit to make it more comparable. Accuracy-wise, however, there isn't a question in my mind that beams perform better than projectile PD weapons. Therefore the range boost from the Missile Interdiction Refit hullmod is too unreasonable for me to be able to keep PD beams balanced.

As far as the downsides go, I definitely understand that on paper it seems like steep penalties for what you are getting in return - and they are harsh its true. However, I found that I actually had to make them that harsh because ships that used the hullmod with high dps PD like the Cutlass Laser or, alternatively, with Integrated Point Defense AI to make small assault weapons PD and therefore also benefitting from the range boost - were way too strong. They could constantly pressure with zero-flux weapons for reasonable damage at extremely long range. They made artillery look terrible in comparison. Ships with the hullmod are supposed to be supporting other ships since PD weapons can fire through allies. Their weapons should support other ships with a small amount of dps, but in a 1v1 situation against an assault ship the support ship should have a really hard time coming out on top.

Your suggestions, while they would be a better solution, are not possible with the API - at least not without doing things that probably shouldn't be done with a hullmod that is removable and not built-in. I'm not 100% sure its possible to do that even then since I don't think you can prevent weapons from being installed that way. I could make the OP really high and I might even be able to differentiate between non-pd and pd weapons doing that I can't remember off hand, but nothing prevents the player from installing the weapons first and then installing the hullmod. So it really doesn't work in practice.

Quote
Is it possible to have a missile to missile PD? Will it be too crazy on CPU?
I assume you mean missiles with tracking? There are already several PD missiles in the mod. The Trapdoor and Smokescreen, for instance. As far as tracking goes, I don't think it would be too CPU heavy but I don't think it would work very well either. The way that missiles maneuver isn't predictive enough to make that work well and thrust is only coming from a single direction instead of omni-directional which is what would be required I think. Either that, or the missile would need to have a crazy amount of AOE and trigger within that circle. Even then I don't think it would be great at stopping things like rockets.

What I could possibly do is something like make a launcher that launches flares that the missile redirects to though. That would probably work a lot better mechanically. The only issue is that it would undermine the flare ship systems a bit.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1736 on: February 08, 2022, 02:01:53 PM »

I completely forgot to mention this:

The other day, I finally discovered why the Obliterator Cannon, Bolter, etc, are more powerful than intended despite reasonable looking stats! It was actually a bug. The damage from each hit was being distributed in full each time an emp arc would proc! Definitely an oversight there on my part.

I've changed it to only deal 1/10th of the damage when the emp arc hits but with the full emp component. That, along with some other changes to ships in the works, should help even out the energy weapon line-up.
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Sythion

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1737 on: February 09, 2022, 06:20:15 AM »

I'd like to start by saying thanks for making this, I'm having a ton of fun!

Something I noticed, and am curious if intentional or an oversight, when running Commissioned Crews mod alongside this, the modded factions (At least AO itself and Trader Guild anyway, haven't gotten on good terms with the other two) Offer a crew bonus but the description is too vague to convey what it gives.

I was able to find out Trader is +hull, but couldn't understand what AO buffed. Would it be possible to add the information  in a future patch?
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1738 on: February 10, 2022, 12:33:43 PM »

I'd like to start by saying thanks for making this, I'm having a ton of fun!

Something I noticed, and am curious if intentional or an oversight, when running Commissioned Crews mod alongside this, the modded factions (At least AO itself and Trader Guild anyway, haven't gotten on good terms with the other two) Offer a crew bonus but the description is too vague to convey what it gives.

I was able to find out Trader is +hull, but couldn't understand what AO buffed. Would it be possible to add the information  in a future patch?

First off, I'm glad you are having fun!

If I'm remembering this correctly I think that all the 3 other factions "bonus" are the same - a 20% or 10% increase to hull or something like that. Those are definitely just placeholders!

The only actual bonus that has been mostly fleshed out is the Adamantine Consortium. I got redirected to a bunch of other stuff in the middle of making the other 3 and so they were put on hold. Honestly thanks for reminding me about it!

I'm currently going through a station balance pass since the weapon changes of course broke things again. Once I'm done with that, and with fixing the issues with the Guardian not spawning drones and attempt to address to the ship quality issue (which I may have my hands tied if it is, indeed, no_autofit causing it) I will try and work on those some more.

Just generally to everyone: I apologize that all of this is taking a while. I've taken a step back and made this project more of a hobby than a full time endeavor. I'm still trying to spend ~10 hrs a week on it, but that's a lot different than, say, 50 or 60 hrs a week that I was spending at the height of building and designing some of this stuff.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1739 on: February 13, 2022, 02:15:35 PM »

Progress update:

TLDR: Here is some of my thought process on station balance and a few concrete changes already in the dev version, and I'm hoping to have an update available in a couple of weeks.

Anytime I make significant changes to weapons, stations become very unbalanced. Mostly this is because station mechanics are complex. A lot of the balance comes down to small things. For instance, when ships are facing a primary weapon battery module, the only thing that matters most of the time is: 1) can the ships get there before they have high enough flux or are otherwise armor stripped? and 2) do they then have enough dps to cause significant or fatal damage during that brief window before they have to retreat? This concept will come up again later in this post.

I've had recommendations in the past to not worry about station balance too much as station battles are often not player-facing unless the player is assaulting another faction's station. I agree that the point has a good deal of merit, but I'm not convinced that attempting to balance stations is not worth the time and effort. Part of the reason for my opinion is that I want to eventually limit station designs for the player to either a standard variant or their chosen commissioned faction's variant. In that sense I don't want one station to feel obviously better than another. I'm not saying the balance will be perfect because there are too many variables, but I want to come close at least if possible.

Now for some details as to the changes I've made, I've significantly reduced the defenses of low tech stations across the board. They were so tanky precisely because they had low-tier and unreliable missiles and mostly relied upon short range guns for defense. Therefore, they had to withstand a considerable amount of punishment in order to deal damage back in a large enough amount to cause ship losses. Before I continue, keep in mind that testing for this revolves around unofficered ships. Officered ships will without a doubt perform much better as a whole, but for a baseline I don't want to rely too much upon high level officers for players to take out a basic orbital station. They really should just need a lot of ships or a few really strong ones. Battlestations and Star Fortresses are a different story. They should be very difficult to destroy for the player as they often guard colonies that are extremely important to the faction: faction capitals, heavy industry worlds, and major resource deposits, etc.

The first thing that I tried (really on a hunch after some very basic math if I'm completely honest) was to test a fleet of only Fire Support ships against the basic stations. As it turns out, stations in their current form are fairly exploitable. Only their missiles could match Fire Support ranges for artillery and modified beams in many cases. This meant that the player could outfit their fleet to snipe stations before they could do much in return. That simply wouldn't do and is too unfun imo. The changes to missiles helped a tiny bit, but not nearly enough. So, the first major change to stations was a massive buff to Targeting Supercomputer:

Spoiler

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(Notice that any station modules with fighter bays get the same missile interdiction bonus a carrier would - only with additional perks from Chassis Storage.)

And now I come back to the idea that fighting combat modules boils down to two things - getting into range and having enough dps to cause damage during that window. The reason its so important that both things happen is that stations can literally kill an unlimited amount of unofficered ships otherwise. CR isn't a factor and so the only attrition to the station is raw damage. Even a completely new max DP deployment wave (at the default battle size of course because I need to balance around that at least to start off) will not cause enough damage to eventually win the battle - also assuming no support ships for the station.

Anyway, I bring this up because range has such an important impact upon the two requirements. As station range increases, the ability for a max DP deployment to actually do anything is exponentially diminished under the standard steady enemy AI. Yet, the extra range is necessary because station battles should rely less upon a specific fleet composition and more upon either power creep from progression/ship acquisition or the skills of the player either tactically, personal flying, or both. As a result, I've had to pay more attention to station design at every level and rely upon an admittedly small amount of sample control tests to determine how to approach balance as whole. I tried to diversify the composition in the tests to include all tech levels and various weapons and roles since the sample size has to remain so small. Station battles take a long time to play out and waiting that whole time is necessary. There were instances where a single module is powerful enough to eliminate all ships in the battle - albeit over a long period of time. The idea is to try and reduce the instances where that sort of scenario occurs. Player intervention will make them occur less just by the player being involved (which can allow for more aggressive and decisive AI decision making). While that's certainly true in most cases, Allied AI-assist battles where the player has limited deployment options are an exception that I feel I must address at some level. They do occur and are more likely to occur when running the mod alongside Nex after all.

Almost all stations have had an increase in weapon count at the first tier as well. The majority of the time this is solely to add more point defense to modules in order to prevent LRMs from being an easy station counter when massed. I'm very close to having Orbital Stations balanced across the board. Once that's done, the higher tiers are generally easier to balance because they have a solid foundation to build off of.

Finally, I have come to a point in the dev version where I feel pretty good about releasing an update soon. It will take a couple of weeks to really nail everything down enough for me to be fully confident, but I am excited for this update in particular because battles feel more... fluid? Hmm, is that really the right word to describe it? The strike weapon, carrier and missile changes kind of come together to improve the feel of battles both viscerally and tactically. Support ships have a greater impact and that creates priority targets for the player depending upon their own fleet composition. If the player is relying upon missiles, PD ships are going to be a primary target. If they lack interceptors and dedicated interceptor carriers, then bombers are going to give them a hard time and so those carriers equipped with them will be a primary target. An interceptor carrier sending its wings to support an ally has an immediately visible effect to its general defense. I am able to tell the difference between carrier interceptors and warship interceptors during a large torpedo salvo, or during swarms of LRMS. I think these are all good signs that the mod is in a better balance state than before. I'm sure there will be more to do and experiment with after the next update of course, however I think the general direction is positive.
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