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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2 (04/30/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - *hotfix* 4/14/22  (Read 551005 times)

Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1695 on: January 21, 2022, 12:25:57 PM »

In vanilla those ships had good range and were very agile, making it hard to hit them long enough to drop their shields, and they did constant dmg to me, since they had good range and unlimited energy rockets and torpedoes.

In TC, player can get weapons with range that is greater than vanilla allowed, plus ships generally have more weapon turrets and unlimited missiles too, some with good range. So, i feel like my ships were upgraded, but those enemy ships still use vanilla weapons, actually.
Also in TC player have a lot more fighters to fight NPC fighter-shards and a lot more PD weapons, and PD is generally more efficient than vanilla, so those fighter-shards are not as dangerous as in vanilla.

In vanilla i used Radiant (and Prometheus Mk2, Dominator and several other cruisers) with plasma throwers and rapid fire lasers against those NPC ships, and they almost killed my Radiant (which is strongest ship in vanilla). In TC NPC couldn't even make a dent in my armor (which is also a lot thicker than vanilla), although i haven't used Radiant. I used Tyrant, Megalith, Odyssey, Revenant and some cruisers, because i expected a real tough fight, so i threw everything i had at them.

I`d give them at least 25% more flux capacity, to hold shields against dmg, and maybe a unique hullmods for 15-30% weapon range. This way u wouldn't have to change their weapons directly, to prevent imbalance for player, but NPC could shoot farther and be generally more dangerous. Plus its only 2 ships, so if player uses TC values for fleet size and battle points, he still have a lot more weapons in battle compared to vanilla fleet, so maybe make them 3-4 ships, or even 5?

I have this noted and will look into testing/changes this weekend.

If u gonna do some changes, can u look at Mine Strike ability? I got Tyrant-class Battleship and i see it makes those teleporting mines sometimes, but it spawns so far away from any ship that i haven't noticed it actually damaging anything. I`m not sure it can even damage fighters, to be honest. Maybe it needs bigger AOE radius.

Also noted. My concern with buffing the system is that I don't want it to get too strong. Its sort of a pendulum that is easily unbalanced in either direction. I'll take a look at it though since I'm already looking at a few other things. The list is pretty big atm and goes back more than few pages of this thread, so if I miss anything let me know once the next update is released.
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1696 on: January 21, 2022, 09:04:28 PM »

I heard the ECM problem has been fixed already? The other thing would be that the D-mods free NPC fleet that does not follow ship quality policy nor present of nano forge. It's going to break faction balance for sure when fixed, so you better deal with it early.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1697 on: January 22, 2022, 05:59:30 AM »

I heard the ECM problem has been fixed already? The other thing would be that the D-mods free NPC fleet that does not follow ship quality policy nor present of nano forge. It's going to break faction balance for sure when fixed, so you better deal with it early.

You mean how the skill was completely negating the range bonus?

What D-mods free fleet? You mean a faction? Sorry, I'm not quite understanding the context.
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1698 on: January 22, 2022, 08:48:49 PM »

I heard the ECM problem has been fixed already? The other thing would be that the D-mods free NPC fleet that does not follow ship quality policy nor present of nano forge. It's going to break faction balance for sure when fixed, so you better deal with it early.

You mean how the skill was completely negating the range bonus?

What D-mods free fleet? You mean a faction? Sorry, I'm not quite understanding the context.

The ECM is referred to this post https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13183.msg340631;topicseen#msg340631
Where enemy weapon range reduction is -0% instead of -10% or something.

And the D-mods is referred to this post https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13183.msg338815#msg338815
Only some of the mod modified ship has D-mods when spawning in an NPC fleet. Majorly, they are all pristine even pirate Atlas.

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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1699 on: January 22, 2022, 09:43:02 PM »

Ah ok thanks for the links that especially helps!

To answer regarding ECM: hopefully? The past link was about the skill not unapplying I thought- because it was removed via console commands (which presumably doesn't call the relevant code). The fact that the bonus was 0% was not intended as it was supposed to be 5% (or half of the standard value). That part has been fixed at least. If you are respeccing skills via the normal method and the 5% bonus (instead of 10%) is still showing up under the same circumstances, then that is a separate issue that I'll need to try and handle if I can.

The faction d-mod issue: Ok I remember that post now sorry there has been a lot of feedback in the last few months and I'm sure that isn't the only thing slipping through the cracks. :-[

So just to continue to narrow things down, was this a vanilla issue that was/is being fixed and now I should account for that in faction balance, or is this issue still at large in the current version? To be honest, if its the latter then I'm not really sure what could be causing it other than possibly a miscommunication of the UI regarding the actual d-mod chance. It certainly doesn't seem to meet the average based upon the screenshots though.

From the technical side of things, the only thing I do regarding faction quality is set the quality of the faction for the new factions and in some systems I obviously include nanoforges - including a couple additions to vanilla factions iirc. Though nanoforges are accounted when displaying overall ship quality afaik, so that wouldn't explain the discrepancy.

I'll try and investigate a bit tomorrow when I also look into bomber stuff that was relatively recently discussed. That's the current plan anyway. I spent quite a bit of time diving into more skill work today and I'm feeling pretty satisfied with the final-ish results. Once I'm 100% sure I'm done I will post some screenshots of the changes - there are specifically a lot of changes to Industry to discuss/showcase.

I've also completed ~75% of the new variants for the new ships that came with the last official Starsector update.
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1700 on: January 23, 2022, 02:09:05 AM »

Quote
To answer regarding ECM: hopefully? The past link was about the skill not unapplying I thought- because it was removed via console commands (which presumably doesn't call the relevant code). The fact that the bonus was 0% was not intended as it was supposed to be 5% (or half of the standard value). That part has been fixed at least. If you are respeccing skills via the normal method and the 5% bonus (instead of 10%) is still showing up under the same circumstances, then that is a separate issue that I'll need to try and handle if I can.

The issue actually occurs before I'm messing with the console command. It might be related to the skill not being applied correctly. So this one can be put on hold. I will reconfirm it when your new version comes out.

Quote
So just to continue to narrow things down, was this a vanilla issue that was/is being fixed and now I should account for that in faction balance, or is this issue still at large in the current version? To be honest, if its the latter then I'm not really sure what could be causing it other than possibly a miscommunication of the UI regarding the actual d-mod chance. It certainly doesn't seem to meet the average based upon the screenshots though.

This issue is exclusive to your mod. I never encounter it in vanilla or in other combinations of mods. It might be that it doesn't pull the quality value properly or there's no D-mods version of the ship to choose from? or they don't know the new modified D-mods? Also adding or removing nano forge (by stealing) doesn't affect the D-mods. Most of the factions have quality over 100% so they will be fine even with this bug initially but if the player stole the nano forge the quality issue will not be reflected correctly as well.

I haven't tested this on .1a yet. I will try to test it today.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1701 on: January 23, 2022, 08:38:23 AM »

@Albreo

Hmm, ok thanks for bringing it up again. I'll run some tests and I posted on the misc modding thread to see if I can get any insight in the meantime. It's weird because afaik this always worked in the past when I ran campaign tests.
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memeextremist

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1702 on: January 23, 2022, 10:23:41 AM »

In vanilla those ships had good range and were very agile, making it hard to hit them long enough to drop their shields, and they did constant dmg to me, since they had good range and unlimited energy rockets and torpedoes.

In TC, player can get weapons with range that is greater than vanilla allowed, plus ships generally have more weapon turrets and unlimited missiles too, some with good range. So, i feel like my ships were upgraded, but those enemy ships still use vanilla weapons, actually.
Also in TC player have a lot more fighters to fight NPC fighter-shards and a lot more PD weapons, and PD is generally more efficient than vanilla, so those fighter-shards are not as dangerous as in vanilla.

In vanilla i used Radiant (and Prometheus Mk2, Dominator and several other cruisers) with plasma throwers and rapid fire lasers against those NPC ships, and they almost killed my Radiant (which is strongest ship in vanilla). In TC NPC couldn't even make a dent in my armor (which is also a lot thicker than vanilla), although i haven't used Radiant. I used Tyrant, Megalith, Odyssey, Revenant and some cruisers, because i expected a real tough fight, so i threw everything i had at them.
same experience tbh. iirc, a couple of weeks ago I was playing AO with a shunted XIV onslaught and a few capital carriers, and they just got smoked. on non-archean order, they're pretty beast.
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1703 on: January 23, 2022, 10:37:21 AM »

Only the ship with the (D) variant can spawn with D-mods somehow while others can't. This issue still persists in .1a version tested without Nex. Some pirate variants that can come with D-mods are missing from codex? While Atlas Mk.II that's in the codex can't spawn with D-mods. It might have something to do with the forced apply ship variant or possibly the no auto fit tag preventing D-mods from being added during generation.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 08:09:04 PM by Albreo »
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Stroichik

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1704 on: January 27, 2022, 06:01:39 AM »

Is there a way to get somewhere a list of all modded hullIds? I want to add it to Industrial Revolution whitelist for reverse engineering.

Oh, Excel actually helped me with that.

So it should be 208 ships, if i remove all station hullIds and modules, right?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 06:24:29 AM by Stroichik »
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Stroichik

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1705 on: January 27, 2022, 04:33:16 PM »

i just noticed that when i salvage derelict probes, ships and motherships i only get resources. Not a single weapon or blueprint or anything. Is it supposed to be that way?
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1706 on: January 28, 2022, 09:02:43 AM »

In vanilla those ships had good range and were very agile, making it hard to hit them long enough to drop their shields, and they did constant dmg to me, since they had good range and unlimited energy rockets and torpedoes.

In TC, player can get weapons with range that is greater than vanilla allowed, plus ships generally have more weapon turrets and unlimited missiles too, some with good range. So, i feel like my ships were upgraded, but those enemy ships still use vanilla weapons, actually.
Also in TC player have a lot more fighters to fight NPC fighter-shards and a lot more PD weapons, and PD is generally more efficient than vanilla, so those fighter-shards are not as dangerous as in vanilla.

In vanilla i used Radiant (and Prometheus Mk2, Dominator and several other cruisers) with plasma throwers and rapid fire lasers against those NPC ships, and they almost killed my Radiant (which is strongest ship in vanilla). In TC NPC couldn't even make a dent in my armor (which is also a lot thicker than vanilla), although i haven't used Radiant. I used Tyrant, Megalith, Odyssey, Revenant and some cruisers, because i expected a real tough fight, so i threw everything i had at them.
same experience tbh. iirc, a couple of weeks ago I was playing AO with a shunted XIV onslaught and a few capital carriers, and they just got smoked. on non-archean order, they're pretty beast.

I'm addressing this in the next update. Thanks for the feedback!

Only the ship with the (D) variant can spawn with D-mods somehow while others can't. This issue still persists in .1a version tested without Nex. Some pirate variants that can come with D-mods are missing from codex? While Atlas Mk.II that's in the codex can't spawn with D-mods. It might have something to do with the forced apply ship variant or possibly the no auto fit tag preventing D-mods from being added during generation.

I asked about this and didn't get a response so I'm not really sure what to do other than try to remove "no_autofit" and see if that changes anything. If that turns out to be the culprit then I will have to either add variants with d-mods to the relevant factions or just ignore it.

I can't remove the no_autofit tag as the default though. Its just too important to ensure the variants work correctly under AI control. The autofit system is fine for vanilla but it really doesn't work well with the mod in the majority of cases - especially as ships get larger. (Though there is a config option in settings to remove the tag anyway. You could try that and see if it effects anything while I get the other stuff finished up but no worries if you don't feel like messing with it further.)

Is there a way to get somewhere a list of all modded hullIds? I want to add it to Industrial Revolution whitelist for reverse engineering.

Oh, Excel actually helped me with that.

So it should be 208 ships, if i remove all station hullIds and modules, right?

Sounds about right, yeah. You are including the skin file ids with that number, correct?

i just noticed that when i salvage derelict probes, ships and motherships i only get resources. Not a single weapon or blueprint or anything. Is it supposed to be that way?

I believe so. You get blueprints from techmining, weapon caches iirc, raiding, missions (I think), and possibly some scripted encounters. Do you find blueprints from salvaging derelicts in vanilla? I don't think I have yet in my playthrough but its not like I've gone really far out of the core yet.
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Stroichik

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1707 on: January 28, 2022, 09:26:01 AM »

i dont remember about blueprints, but maybe some occasional rare weapon drop should be added based on what derelict i salvage?
Like probe is minimal chance to get any weapon,
ship - low chance of mid-game weapons up to medium size,
and motherships - low chance of rare weapons up to large size and slightly higher than low chance of several medium weapons + extremely low chance of single legendary weapon.

Derelicts supposed to be Domain-era and space usually preserves things quite well, so its kinda strange to not see anything weapon related.

And for ships whitelist i opened ships.csv with Excel, took Id column and posted it in I.E's whitelist file, removed anything related to "modules" and "station". In other ships' files those were called "hullIds". I wasn't including anything else, since it was a whitelist for reverse engineering feature, so it only needed a sort of permission on which Ids to perform that feature. Didn't added to whitelist anything except those Ids. Seems to be working fine.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1708 on: January 28, 2022, 11:54:57 AM »

i dont remember about blueprints, but maybe some occasional rare weapon drop should be added based on what derelict i salvage?
Like probe is minimal chance to get any weapon,
ship - low chance of mid-game weapons up to medium size,
and motherships - low chance of rare weapons up to large size and slightly higher than low chance of several medium weapons + extremely low chance of single legendary weapon.

Derelicts supposed to be Domain-era and space usually preserves things quite well, so its kinda strange to not see anything weapon related.

This would be neat, but I'm not sure I'm up for the work of replacing all the vanilla systems required to make that happen. At least not until a lot of other things are done anyway. It wouldn't be a trivial to do I'd imagine.



In the simulator it now takes a full deployment of ships to take on two SUPER REDACTED destroyers. Under complete AI control, the destroyers win either with very little hull remaining or maybe one of the destroyers "splitting" before the battle's end. I've tested with multiple fleet compositions of all techs and this seems to be a fairly reliable outcome. Granted this is unofficered ships so I may need to further buff SUPER REDACTED as a whole. Their unique weapons remain unchanged. They have instead had some pretty sizeable buffs to speed and general defenses. I've also made their shields 360 degrees alongside some built-in stats to greatly reduce the impact that strike craft have on them.

There are a few other balance ideas I'd like to implement today - one of which being another pass at bombers and legendary wings based upon recent feedback and some potential frigate class changes. I think I finally have a way of addressing the balance concerns of higher tier craft that won't break other areas of general balance - such as frigates.

We will see how it turns out.
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Stroichik

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Re: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21
« Reply #1709 on: January 28, 2022, 01:09:34 PM »

Quote
This would be neat, but I'm not sure I'm up for the work of replacing all the vanilla systems required to make that happen. At least not until a lot of other things are done anyway. It wouldn't be a trivial to do I'd imagine.

Yeah, it depends on how it is realised in game. If its something like a loot table list that gets assigned to certain objects - should be relatively easy. If its made in some other way - its harder.

But i thought vanilla did dropped weapons sometimes from derelicts, no? Maybe its not dropping now because it needs to have new weapon Ids pasted somewhere in whitelist too? Or derelicts never dropped weapons? I think it even dropped AI cores sometimes. But i really dont remember.
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