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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - *hotfix* 4/14/22  (Read 722416 times)

KD_621

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1590 on: November 01, 2021, 06:43:57 PM »

Heya, just found this mod and read through the description and i have some few questions about it

1. I saw that it might not work with skill mods, so i'm wondering if Quality Captains would break stuff too much. Can't really live without that mod on so i figured i should ask about it
2. Will you do compatibility patches / options for some of the modded factions (Diable, ORA, etc)? Because i want to use those as well
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1591 on: November 01, 2021, 07:59:10 PM »

Heya, just found this mod and read through the description and i have some few questions about it

1. I saw that it might not work with skill mods, so i'm wondering if Quality Captains would break stuff too much. Can't really live without that mod on so i figured i should ask about it
2. Will you do compatibility patches / options for some of the modded factions (Diable, ORA, etc)? Because i want to use those as well

1. This mod makes changes to skills and so does Quality Captains. From the last test I *think* this mod overrides that mod's changes but shouldn't cause any crashes. To use that mod's changes, commenting out this portion of the mod_info.JSON file would likely work:

Spoiler
        "data\\characters\\skills\\skill_data.csv",
        "data/characters/skills/carrier_group.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/weapon_drills.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/fighter_uplink.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/flux_regulation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/coordinated_maneuvers.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/energy_weapon_mastery.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/damage_control.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/phase_mastery.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/phase_corps.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/special_modifications.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/strike_commander.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/point_defense.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/target_analysis.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/helmsmanship.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/impact_mitigation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/planetary_operations.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/wolfpack_tactics.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/gunnery_implants.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/ranged_specialization.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/space_operations.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/electronic_warfare.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/derelict_contingent.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/field_repairs.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/missile_specialization.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/auxiliary_support.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/salvaging.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/crew_training.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/colony_management.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/industrial_planning.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/sensors.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/navigation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/flux_modulation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/systems_expertise.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/reliability_engineering.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/officer_management.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/officer_training.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/makeshift_equipment.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/automated_ships.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/bulk_transport.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/shield_modulation.skill",
[close]

2. I will consider those types of requests with permission from the original mod author. It may take some time depending upon other priorities however. As of this moment, faction mods are compatible in the sense that they shouldn't crash in the majority of cases but they are not balanced around this mod's combat mechanics. Faction mods generally balance around the standard game and not combat overhauls like this mod.
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KD_621

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1592 on: November 02, 2021, 07:17:23 AM »

1. This mod makes changes to skills and so does Quality Captains. From the last test I *think* this mod overrides that mod's changes but shouldn't cause any crashes. To use that mod's changes, commenting out this portion of the mod_info.JSON file would likely work:

Spoiler
        "data\\characters\\skills\\skill_data.csv",
        "data/characters/skills/carrier_group.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/weapon_drills.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/fighter_uplink.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/flux_regulation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/coordinated_maneuvers.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/energy_weapon_mastery.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/damage_control.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/phase_mastery.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/phase_corps.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/special_modifications.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/strike_commander.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/point_defense.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/target_analysis.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/helmsmanship.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/impact_mitigation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/planetary_operations.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/wolfpack_tactics.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/gunnery_implants.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/ranged_specialization.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/space_operations.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/electronic_warfare.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/derelict_contingent.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/field_repairs.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/missile_specialization.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/auxiliary_support.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/salvaging.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/crew_training.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/colony_management.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/industrial_planning.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/sensors.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/navigation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/flux_modulation.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/systems_expertise.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/reliability_engineering.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/officer_management.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/officer_training.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/makeshift_equipment.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/automated_ships.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/bulk_transport.skill",
        "data/characters/skills/shield_modulation.skill",
[close]

2. I will consider those types of requests with permission from the original mod author. It may take some time depending upon other priorities however. As of this moment, faction mods are compatible in the sense that they shouldn't crash in the majority of cases but they are not balanced around this mod's combat mechanics. Faction mods generally balance around the standard game and not combat overhauls like this mod.

Couldn't get the fix to work (probably because i'm dumb), but i managed to live without the skill mod active. As for the second point yeah i can understand, but i'm hoping to see more ships in the future maybe, especially capital-class ones

I've been really enjoying the mod so far, and the altered combat has been really entertaining. Hoping to see more from this in the future!
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1593 on: November 02, 2021, 07:51:42 AM »

just so you know there is a converted version of musashi manufactorum for this mod on nexus mod database
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edit: edit: maybe were just falling with style LOL.  make a bubble, make the space in front of it smaller and just fall forward

Darrow

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1594 on: November 08, 2021, 08:42:00 AM »

Just a suggestion and I know you addressed this awhile back...

But some of the portraits are extremely jarringly non-fitting for starsector. Specifically the ones from EVE or that are a completely different art style compared to the rest.
Would be great if portraits could get an update or a trim to be more fitting as I find it sometimes distracts me or brings me out of the game seeing some odd leader portraits.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1595 on: November 09, 2021, 02:52:15 PM »

Just a suggestion and I know you addressed this awhile back...

But some of the portraits are extremely jarringly non-fitting for starsector. Specifically the ones from EVE or that are a completely different art style compared to the rest.
Would be great if portraits could get an update or a trim to be more fitting as I find it sometimes distracts me or brings me out of the game seeing some odd leader portraits.

Yeah I understand. There is a huge variety from multiple portrait packs thrown into the mod. I am planning on separating them out into actual portrait packs that can be enabled and disabled at any time. Its one of the things on the list for the next update.

I myself don't know where they all came from except for a few I recognize from games I've played like Sins of a Solar Empire. You'd have to ask the respective mod authors listed on the credits section. In that line of thinking, separating them out also makes sense from the perspective of keeping the core changes of the mod separate from anything that is potentially not used with permission, etc, etc. So there really isn't a good reason not to do it that way.
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1596 on: November 10, 2021, 07:41:02 AM »

Stoked for the next update.  Got a teaser for us?
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Darrow

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1597 on: November 11, 2021, 10:53:49 AM »

A lot of the Legendary Gunships (Fighters) are pretty trash and expensive, kraken/goliath etc.

I find it's far more useful to have swarms of fighters rather than the slow moving legendary gunships. This is unfortunate as they offer a unique fighter/bomber type class but they just get absolutely destroyed due to their size and speed against any ship.

In small battles they're effective, but as soon as you reach mid-to-endgame they get complety swallowed up.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 11:59:00 AM by Darrow »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1598 on: November 15, 2021, 10:50:37 AM »

Stoked for the next update.  Got a teaser for us?

I wont have anything really noticeable for a while since a lot of stuff is behind the scenes code and stuff like that. I'd check back after the holidays and I may have something more concrete by then!

A lot of the Legendary Gunships (Fighters) are pretty trash and expensive, kraken/goliath etc.

I find it's far more useful to have swarms of fighters rather than the slow moving legendary gunships. This is unfortunate as they offer a unique fighter/bomber type class but they just get absolutely destroyed due to their size and speed against any ship.

In small battles they're effective, but as soon as you reach mid-to-endgame they get complety swallowed up.

The problem I have with making them tougher is that frigates become way too weak/trivial and they already suffer from that issue a bit. For Legendary gunships my advice is that they work best when massed and only have a couple interceptor wings or an anti-fighter gunship or two for defense. That is when they are the most effective from what I've seen. As a renewable long range heavy weapons platform they seemed worth it when I was testing - at least when put on carriers. I think it would be less ideal to put them on warships though. They hit really hard even compared to a lot of bombers, but if none actually get to use their weapons it feels bad since they have a long replacement time compared to most smaller fighters.

Its not that a buff is out of the question or anything. The other factor is skills - have you put any skills into carriers or fighter craft and were you facing enemies that had buffs against fighters, for instance?

Really, the more detail the better.
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5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1599 on: November 18, 2021, 05:49:18 PM »

Just got to a game with this mod and been going for a few days, and absolutely loving it after some false starts.
Main problem was me figuring out weapons. Some thoughts on the mod:

Good
I love how ships are so much tankier. I prefer high tech but even they feel like they have noticeable armor, and their shields can be outstandingly tough. Meanwhile low tech have ridiculous amounts of armor, allowing them to actually facetanking despite shields folding like tissue paper to heavy kinetics.

Bounties are worth doing! At 5k a frigate for systems you can build a nest egg by picking on pirates, and it's worth fighting now economically instead of just trading... which is still worth more but not as exciting.
Doesn't apply to bar missions though. They offer a lot less, but can provide direction for exploring at least. I'm not sure why bar missions don't use the same pricing structure though.

Eh:
Salvage gantries have been removed from everything but the salvage ship, which seems to have lower op so you can't reduce it to a frigate sensor signature without story points, making me sad.

Maintenance is now super cheap which I love. They spike in maintenance from larger ships is barely noticeable though despite the guide, except after combat... this results in the weird situation where you can run around with a Paragon not even paying 1 supply per day with it there to protect your fleet, only to have it charge you through the nose if you it gets scratched. It might be worth mentioning the cost spike is in recovery, not maintenance.

For the tactics guide, it might be worth noting some assault weapons generate low amount of flux. The guide said they were non flux weapons, which is definitely no true for some and threw me for a bit.

The Tachyeon lance slows you down massively when firing for no stated reason. Fortunately I was testing it before fighting to get over the surprise, but having a ship going from over 100 to stationary while firing was a... experience.

Beams are useful. And you changed the beam scatter mod into something that makes kinetic beams still useful if you're exploring or after you've worn down low tech shields. However this might be too a bit of over tuning especially for non-kinetic beams, as with the changes to Flux disapation even without dealing hard flux they'd probably still be useful in this mod. I generally use them since they're basically hitscan opposed to the other high-tech weapons.

(As a point of reference, I managed to nab a Hyperion early game. While I used Assault lasers for it's 4 small slots originally, I currently use 4 Pulse Lasers and 2 Twin Tacticals. Twin Tacticals provide nice amounts of hard flux at good range and low cost, while the pulse lasers a free low damage, decent pd, work through armor and shields ok, and can be used for mining. All up, the 4 cost me 12 OP, which is tiny.)

Venting at High Flux can be almost as dangerous as overloading in this mod. Venting you vent 4* flux disapation, except flux capacity is a lot higher in this mod, especially for high tech ships, dragging out how long you're a sitting duck and you can't stop mid-vent. I'm not sure it's intentional but I think it is, particularly from watching the AI in fights. I note this mostly because from reading the guide, it's not obvious.

The Falcon Cruiser in Pirate Class has Midline and Pirate bays, which stack, making Interceptors and Fighters 10 OP cheaper. I'm not sure that's deliberate.

Bad:
The Mora (Cruiser carrier) is overturned (Just did some testing with non-Mora carriers against it. It's rediculous). It's capable of taking on dedicated combat cruisers with fighter and frigate support on its own and facerolling between super heavy armor, damping field, and 5 fighter bays since fighters don't stop shooting like it's guns while the field is on. It's also so tanky that from what I can tell, you need to bring your own Mora carriers against it or a Capital. It was a surprise when it showed up and a nice wakeup call, but when they start showing up in pairs and trios being the only real pirate threat can make for a major annoyance, since the battle comes down to 'Do I want to burn a ton of supplies and a story point, or do I want to burn a ton of supplies and risk ships killing everything that drifts too far from a Mora before retreating'. It's especially annoying since I brought a combat cruiser specifically because of them, only for my fleet to be facerolled.

The Buffalo desperately needs more OP. A Mercury allows me to carry 200 units of cargo, costs .5 maintainance, moves at speed 10, and has 30 op. The Buffalo carries 400 and moves at speed 8, while costing 1 and having 30 OP. The Tarsus sits at 60 OP so I think this is just an oversight unless it's a bug on my end (Which might be the case, despite disabling mods I have a couple of ships and weapons from old mods floating around.)

It might just be me, but baring fast torpedoes (with eccm) and interdictors using missiles is largely a waste against ships not using flak canons for pd, and if you're waiting for overload you might not have the flux to use strike and fire support missiles. Also, it might be worth restoring the maneuvering characteristic information to missiles, because I was surprised but very happy to find Ion Torpedoes are guided.
Speaking of interdictors, the Squall missile says its a kinetic antishield missile, but they're acting like interdictors. Not sure if it's a bug or the description needs updating.

The Cutlass PD system needs a nerf. They don't use ammo or flux, and they do enough damage to outcompete energy based kinetics while having over op costs. The Large one has ammo so should be fine but I haven't tested it. The medium one might be ok if you drop the dps to 300 and drop the range but honestly the only competition the cutlass has is with strike and anti armor weapons in my opinion.
(For reference, the Cutlass does 400dps at 80 a shot every .2 seconds, costs 9OP, and generates 0 flux. Gravitron Beam is 200 Kinetic DPS with a 1200 beam every 6 for 200 range and 13 OP. 4 OP for 200 range and loss of PD is not worth it IMO. The Graviton Driver deals 200dps, with 4 shots 300 damage every 6 seconds, meaning the Cutlass still does as much damage to shields as it, albeit without a spike. The Graviton driver has 1100 range compared to 600, which is great for longer range dueling and the higher hit damage means even with kinetic conversion it's more damaging to armor! But the Cutlass can fire through ships and sits at almost half the OP with the Graviton Driver sitting at a tasty 15 OP while actually costing you Flux. All in All, until I start picking fights with stations or large fleets, I'll stick with the Cutlass.)

The Assault Laser might need a nerf, at 4OP I feel no need to use higher end small weapons on almost all ships, that might miss, don't act as PD in a pinch, and only have slightly higher range for often lower DPS. This is particularly egregious since the game says it's bad, but it's my primary small weapon as a high tech use, as opposed to all the pulse canon varieties.
When it comes to what nerf, given it's status as an assault weapon, maybe increase the OP to 5 or 6. Probably 6 looking at other weapons, since at that point I'd actually have to debate using it, the Gattling Laser (Which feels a bit weak IMO), or a Pulse Canon.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 07:06:39 PM by 5ColouredWalker »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1600 on: November 19, 2021, 12:45:51 PM »

@5ColouredWalker

I'll try to touch on the general points with my response, but thank you for taking the time to write that out and give detailed feedback!

Caveat: I haven't tested in a couple months, so I am basing this off of the last tests I remember. Bear with me.

Ok, so first I've made a mental note to see if person bounties need better payouts by default as this is actually a configurable thing in the game's settings file. The mod has its own settings file that overrides a few, so I'll need to double check that the person bounties are there. I *think* they are.

Salvage Gantries are more meant for medium sized fleets not stealth ones. The Shepard class drone tender I think has some of the same capabilities though iirc. That is a frigate-sized ship. I'd try that out and see how it compares.

The tactics guide badly needs an update. I wrote that over 4 years ago and a LOT has changed in the mod since then. Its on my todo list for sure! Thanks for the specific notes there.

The Tachyon Lance slows the ship and prevents the weapon from turning while firing for two reasons:

1) The AI is better at targeting when the angle freezes because the AI has a tendency to sweep burst beams to the side - which wastes quite a bit of the Lance's damage per strike. It was a serious issue.

2) Without this feature, the TL is the best weapon by a large margin because it has pinpoint accuracy and massive range. A player or AI ship kiting with it is way too strong without this detriment. That being said, I probably need this effect in the stat card or at the front of the description to make this more clear.

Mora: That ship had a huge buff in the last update and I may have went too far with it. However, testing it against carriers is not the way to go in this case. It is a brawler-like carrier and as such it will beat longer ranged carriers in a one vs one scenario a lot of the time if it actually can close the distance. It can also hold its own against dedicated warships - though its weapon package makes it less effective overall most of the time. If you're having trouble with multiple ones, my advice would be to isolate them and don't let them isolate you. Their huge defense pool means they have enough staying power to get you into a bad spot. Use a PD specific frigate or destroyer to strip away their replacement rate before engaging them, and their lack of firepower will likely start to show more. One thing about this mod you will find is that some enemies will seem very, very scary until you realize the best way to beat them. Generalist ships certainly work and are useful all game long, but sometimes specialization is necessary.

I'm glad you are enjoying beams and it seems you have specialized into them a bit if you have the hullmod from the skill. That is designed to provide some playthrough variety sort of like the missile skill hullmods in Combat. It does indeed make beams powerful but that is sort of the point since you spent your limited skill points and some OP/SP making that happen. It wouldn't feel right to me if that investment still left other weapons as more attractive - and I think the fact that a lot of non-beam weapons synergize well at pressuring between beam bursts means that your loadouts still have a lot of variety left - which is good.

Buffalo vs Mercury: Yeah it seems to likely be another mod giving you a vanilla version of one or both of those ships. The buffalo should have 35 OP and the Mercury should only have 160 cargo capacity. I could also have missed an instance where this is hardcoded. Do you remember where you got those ships?

Missiles are opportunity weapons that really shine well when saturating a target - especially if some PD is disabled. They can definitely feel underwhelming in small numbers, but I don't think they are worse by any means. A large reason for this is that most missiles have longer range and can pass through allies. They need to be heavily countered by PD or they become overwhelming when massed. Even if they are slightly worse than other weapon types as a result in some cases, I don't think they are a waste of OP in a missile-dedicated weapon mount or anything, and some missiles are pretty terrifying in their own right. The Thunderbolt and Cloudburst come to mind there.

The Squall is a bit of a specialty weapon in that it is an anti-shield weapon through its damage compared to other interdictors, but it also serves as an interdictor. The description could stand a once over for clarity though I agree.

The Cutlass Laser and Assault Beam are definitely strong - especially with the Assault Beam's ability to provide defense against multiple targets in a line. They are supposed to be fun starter weapons mostly, and while still useful when mixed in with other weapons, both weapons will start to fall off a bit when you get to capitals and to a lesser extent cruisers. Range is a huge stat in Starsector so I'd honestly rather have a Graviton Beam over a Cutlass Laser for a lot of my builds. Even with the dps, a longer ranged ship will sometimes provide enough pressure that the ship with the Cutlass laser can't get within range fast enough to win the flux war and ends up having to retreat - which can leave it vulnerable to flanks or small, faster enemies. It IS a really great frigate and destroyer weapon though - likely will remain relevant into late game as such.

Other things come into play too, such as armor penetration and stuff like that, but suffice it to say that PD weapons are totally viable as impromptu close-range assault weapons considering their dps, but I'm not sure they are more attractive of an option over other weapons for me - though the other elements of the build certainly matter there.

I'm glad you have your favorites so far though! We will see if that changes over time and I've noted your feedback. When I start testing again I'll take a closer look there. Definitely feel free to let me know if other things come up and how the mod feels as you progress more. Again, I'm going on what I remember so I could be wrong about some of this.

I think that covers everything? Let me know if I missed something.

P.S Oh and the Pirate Falcon thing is a bug/oversight! I will fix that for the next release!
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5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1601 on: November 19, 2021, 06:23:05 PM »

@5ColouredWalker
Thanks for the response. Some notes!

Personal bounties are fine. Base game they generally don't go far above 250k, where as I've seen some up to 400ish K in this mod. It's just the bar generated bounties. System ones are set at 1k/Frigate instead of 5ish/frigate, but since those ones generate for systems that aren't the core it's fine as it's a exploration direction, though it might be worth upping to around 2k to make it attractive. However, the bar generated personal bounties seem to run for about half the value compared to random ones, though from the few I've seen they generally go for weak ships on even the high end bar bounties, which makes the higher end bar ones worth it if they're in your way.

The Shepard doesn't have Salvage Gantries in this mod any more otherwise I'd load up on them for mining, hauling and salvage (They are good miners.). As for the Lance those points are fine and I'm more than happy with it (I slapped Advanced Optics into it and boy, that had some range!), just needed noting.

Thanks for the notes on the Mora. At the moment I just stay away from pirate fleets with them since I'm mostly exploring and trading, but I'll keep it in mind for when I move to combat. That said, it's armor is high enough it reaches capital class with heavy armor which is why I think it needs toning down a smidge.

For the Mercury and Buffalo I've bought them on multiple different planets (Or not, in the Buffalo's case, but I've seen them in several skins on multiple planets.). Buffalo's been have 30 op (33 with skil) in my version, and Mercury has been having 160 storage is accurate, but it's 208 with Expanded Cargo Holds and when they have the same op but Buffalo's mods cost more due to it being frigate class there's no need to use it.
That said, why would the Buffalo be deliberately set at a lower OP than the Tarsus? I haven't spent much time comparing the two so maybe the Buffalo's cheaper (Definitely has less weapon slots, though the TT version has better built in drones.), but if it's intentional ok.

Duly noted on missiles. I've been having more luck with point blank Hammers recently on all shorts of ships (And it's fun seeing ships get yeeted, especially if their engines are blown so they don't automatically slow down, even if it means they sometimes escape to fight back instead of taking more torpedos) as well as using the odd Reaper, and I do enjoy Hunters. Perhaps I wasn't focused enough on them. As for other weapon notes, I've not been fighting stations or doing large late game fleet battles yet, so perhaps my view will change overtime.

As for the Pirate Falcon, I was wrong with it being 10op, it's 20op discounting with 10 seeming to be the intended one from ones with single replacements (I was thrown by the Venture's bays only discounting 5, not sure if that one's deliberate or not so mentioning it here but it's more than fine).

Thanks for taking note of things for update!
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Albreo

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1602 on: November 20, 2021, 08:58:47 AM »

There's another ship with Salvage Gantries which is the high-tech capital-class Odyssey. Not easy to come by early game.

Also, you shouldn't compare weapons in this mod with DPS stat alone. It's very very deceptive as the majority of weapons fire in bursts plus has a magazine. A Burst weapon has more advantages than a continuous weapon in which it can overload the opponent quicker, can dodge without losing much DPS in a small ship. You will not be able to fire those continuous weapons all the time so you are losing in DPS while finding another target/dodge whereas you can use that downtime to reload magazines. High yield, low DPS. A very high alpha damage weapon such as the Antimatter Blaster can nuke the enemy before it can retaliate. But still, burst weapons can be overwhelmed if there are too many enemies nearby and the ship itself is slow. In that situation, you might consider yourself switching to a lower flux continuous weapon to use the majority of the flux to tank damage instead.

@Morrokain
How about making the Assault beam not pierce crafts? That should lower the effectiveness somewhat.
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5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1603 on: November 20, 2021, 03:44:42 PM »

I am aware of the difference between Burst/Non Burst.

Since this is brought up in relation to a shield weapon, a 'Burst' anti-shield weapon is incredibly useful for overloading... But shields can be lowered to just let it through unless it's packing enough damage or an EMP component.

You can't just drop shields for a sustained anti-shield weapon, as that means your shields are down for any anti-armor weapons.

So, you can spend 4 op for the range and burstyness of a Graviton Beam (Which technically would be better anti-armor being a delivery of 600 damage in a burst) that can't be retasked a PD and fire through your own ships, but then low tech ships can just flicker their sheilds unless you're right next to them with torpedoes ready to go or have enough nearby threat for them to be willing to risk an overload. And with how long flux disipation takes in this mod and how well the coding works, they're not going to do that unless they'd die anyway or have a good retreat path while overloaded. Or you're lucky.

Edit:
For Cutlass Beam nerfs, I'd just suggest raising the OP to, say, 11 (That way it's no longer super cheap in comparison.), or dropping the damage closer to 300dps a second (That way as an anti-shield weapon it doesn't rival the Graviton Beam).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 04:02:06 PM by 5ColouredWalker »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1604 on: November 20, 2021, 05:49:12 PM »

I spent today specifically testing the Assault Beam.

Spoiler
It doesn't really seem that imbalanced on a first assessment. It performs worse against fighters and missiles assuming they are spread out when compared to the Burst PD
Beam, Dual Micro Repeater, Void Driver and Pulse Laser.

So from that angle, I don't think its better. I tested this using a Damaged Falcon using the beams in its four small universal slots against four Vigilance light carriers armed with Hunters and Broadswords. They surround the cruiser and send missiles and powerful fighters at all angles.

It probably would be better against concentrated enemies though.

For the assault component, I tested a Wolf using 3 Assault Beams in its forward 3 energy mounts and supplemented each build with Shockstorm rockets on the side missile mounts and Burst PD Beams in the rear weapon mounts.

I used the AI to fight Rhino-class heavy frigates and Tempest-class heavy frigates to test both shield and armor effectiveness at the frigate level. The results are interesting.

Basically, compared to higher OP weapons the Assault Beam is worse against any decent armored targets. It performed noticeably worse against the Rhino compared to Pulse Cannons or Micro Blasters. This is WITHOUT the armor damage boosting skill, however, so factoring that in would likely change the final result.

However, vs shielded enemies its a lot closer even without skills involved. The Pulse Cannons barely come out ahead after multiple tests one vs one. I also tested Advanced Optics and it makes the Assault Beams worse in that situation as expected. So that was a good result overall as that is expected.

I decided at the end of the tests to reduce the damage from the Assault Beam from 700 damage per burst (which translates to around 500-520 hit strength) to 600 damage per burst (which translates to around 450 hit strength) and I think that will widen the gap just enough.

The reasoning for the change was mostly just the fact that the OP was low enough warrant it being slightly less effective compared to high OP weapons. While those weapons are technically better, it wasn't noticeable enough to justify the cost especially with scale being a factor on larger ships.

I'm also debating a slight buff for the Pulse Laser on the PD side of things. The Void Driver's range makes it good for an extra OP, but the Pulse Laser seems a bit worse than the Dual Micro Repeater or probably even with it - but for an extra OP.
[close]

Those are my thoughts for now. I also fixed the issue with the Pirate conversions for the Falcon, Eagle and also corrected the Sci Corps Eagle to have high tech warship bays instead of midline. The variants have all been adjusted as well.

*EDIT* I also reduced the dps of the Cutlass Laser to 320 instead of 400. This was done by slightly reducing the rate of fire so the armor penetration remains the same. This is a tentative change until I can test more.

I'll also do a brief pass of Legendary Gunships in large scale battles in the next couple days to round out the feedback from recent posts. Then its back to other things.

@Morrokain
How about making the Assault beam not pierce crafts? That should lower the effectiveness somewhat.

I looked into this, but from the tests its anti fighter performance wasn't a problem from what I saw. It was more the fact that it could pressure shields as well or close to other weapons for less OP while still retaining some armor penetration or possibly even better armor penetration with skills.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 06:09:01 PM by Morrokain »
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