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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - *hotfix* 4/14/22  (Read 722345 times)

Ranakastrasz

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #270 on: February 21, 2019, 06:32:40 AM »


Hold the line heroically? Yes. But equipped specifically as Fire Support? Less clear to me based on the mission description. It could be possible even now to use that variant with the general Paragon buff though. It's pretty substantial.
True enough. Also, I can't see any reason to use missiles over tachyon lances, given their sheer efficiency. Seriously, the missile is pretty easy if you replace pretty much any of the large slots (except maybe the rear ones) with a tachyon lance. They are just so powerful. And un-dodgeable. Seriously, cores a frigate in one shot, when a full volly from two squalls can't match that (Admittedly EMP, so w.e.) or you have to flush at least 3 of the medium hunter launcher thinggies. The lance has all the advantages of missiles, and none of the counters. The only downside is it requires Line of sight, but, well, that isn't nearly enough of a downside.
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On Missile Flux:

The reason that most missile flux costs are high in the case of long range missiles like the the Hunter was originally because ships can mass equip and focus fire those weapons even over allied ships guarding them. Ballistic or energy strike weapons, by contrast, must have a direct line of sight to the target or they will cause friendly fire, so more allies in front to guard have diminishing returns. Those weapons also still cause a lot of flux build up too, but yes the impulse is generally lower that full missile salvos.
True enough. But you can't really build missile-boats, or even get close to them. The flux costs are just too extreme, and you end up at the point where you can't keep up constant fire even with venting after each volly. And it gets worse for those ships with Missile autoload, since that also makes flux.
Strike and support weapons have a similar problem, but nowhere near as extreme.
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Fighters also accomplish massed strikes, however, and they are more effective in their strikes since they stick around and keep firing. Limited ammo will help a little bit, but missiles do seem a little weak in comparison. Consider though that missile slots are far more common than fighter bays (It may not seem that way but it is true. :P) and so they can be massed more easily and don't have a built-in limiting mechanic like fighters other than flux and regen.
Missile slots are more common, yes, but the flux to run them isn't.
Also, hanger conversion, plus they relaunch without flux (Although fighter replacement tweaks might make the decay more notable)
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There are some other reasons, too, like ensuring long range missiles generate a lot of flux to avoid too much kiting from full salvo bursting then 0-flux boosting until you can do so again. In large fleet encounters this is less effective because there are so many fighters to screen against missiles, but in small engagements missiles become overwhelming and cheap when used this way.
True enough, but, well, its more extreme than is needed. I mean, a frigate, except maybe the Hyperion, can't launch a hunter missile without losing it's zero-flux bonus. A destroyer, maybe, a Cruiser, almost always, and a Capital absolutely. But, well, It doesn't need to be that extreme.
If you can only throw one hunter, then shields/pd can probably handle it, even on a frigate.
The volleys are what matters.

Yes, Having lots of frigates shooting one missile while kiting is a problem. But, the flux cost is such that you can't safely even shoot a volly from a single frigate without nearing overload. It doesn't need to be that extreme to avoid hitting the kiting point. Also, as a ship gets larger, the issues with kiting should be smaller, so they don't need massive flux costs either, and probably shouldn't have to slow down to shoot a few small missiles.
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That being said, the Hunter and a few other missiles could use a re-evaluation after the power creep of fighters when trying to diversify their weapon loadouts. Vessels firing them should still find themselves vulnerable, but maybe not defenseless as is the case sometimes.
Yea. A hunter ought to eat 10-30% of the flux budget, maybe. Not 50-200%.

But I need to look at the math and figure out what I think should happen to get good answers. After you fix the PD thing ofc.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #271 on: February 21, 2019, 06:05:29 PM »

True enough. Also, I can't see any reason to use missiles over tachyon lances, given their sheer efficiency. Seriously, the missile is pretty easy if you replace pretty much any of the large slots (except maybe the rear ones) with a tachyon lance. They are just so powerful. And un-dodgeable. Seriously, cores a frigate in one shot, when a full volly from two squalls can't match that (Admittedly EMP, so w.e.) or you have to flush at least 3 of the medium hunter launcher thinggies. The lance has all the advantages of missiles, and none of the counters. The only downside is it requires Line of sight, but, well, that isn't nearly enough of a downside.

The Tachyon Lance admittedly is a bit of a special case. It is one of the rarest and highest tiered weapons in the mod, and so it can definitely be used to great effect. The Apocalypse Cannon is another example of an extremely potent weapon. Other more common strike weapons are far more limiting. If you want a missile example, though, try out the Hivemind. Would that roughly compare in strength?

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True enough. But you can't really build missile-boats, or even get close to them. The flux costs are just too extreme, and you end up at the point where you can't keep up constant fire even with venting after each volly. And it gets worse for those ships with Missile autoload, since that also makes flux.
Strike and support weapons have a similar problem, but nowhere near as extreme.

Yeah definitely agreed. I will make some adjustments for the worst offenders that were mentioned and see how that plays out.

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Missile slots are more common, yes, but the flux to run them isn't.
Also, hanger conversion, plus they relaunch without flux (Although fighter replacement tweaks might make the decay more notable)

Hopefully, and also the Converted Hangars hullmod I'm pretty sure also further reduces replacement rate so that should add to that balance change. It was definitely a bit too strong before.

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True enough, but, well, its more extreme than is needed. I mean, a frigate, except maybe the Hyperion, can't launch a hunter missile without losing it's zero-flux bonus. A destroyer, maybe, a Cruiser, almost always, and a Capital absolutely. But, well, It doesn't need to be that extreme.
If you can only throw one hunter, then shields/pd can probably handle it, even on a frigate.
The volleys are what matters.

Yes, Having lots of frigates shooting one missile while kiting is a problem. But, the flux cost is such that you can't safely even shoot a volly from a single frigate without nearing overload. It doesn't need to be that extreme to avoid hitting the kiting point. Also, as a ship gets larger, the issues with kiting should be smaller, so they don't need massive flux costs either, and probably shouldn't have to slow down to shoot a few small missiles.

Yea. A hunter ought to eat 10-30% of the flux budget, maybe. Not 50-200%.

But I need to look at the math and figure out what I think should happen to get good answers. After you fix the PD thing ofc.

Well, a single missile, like you said, isn't actually a big deal with pd being what it is. The issue is when an entire volley can be fired and a retreat is still mostly a viable option. Then the support vessels last the entire battle without any real pressure.

So, the idea was to always have assault oriented vessels available to screen against enemy assault vessels coming to kill your own support. Would you say that this is too limiting to missiles as a whole, since they can also be effectively countered by strong pd or overwhelming numbers?
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verlonxx

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #272 on: February 22, 2019, 11:37:54 PM »

is there going to any update soon >.< im wanna start playing the mod again but the hero crash is stopping me lol. Also there no need to rush it as well.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #273 on: February 23, 2019, 01:13:15 AM »

^ I think soon, maybe even this weekend. I just really want to fix that procurement mission bug first. It only happens under certain circumstances and I haven't quite tracked down its source yet. So it will likely depend upon how hard that turns out to be.

(I had also wanted to get the Luddic Church stations in, ideally, but if an update is possible this weekend and I can't get to it I'll push that to the next update after this one).
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didntnoagoodname

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #274 on: February 24, 2019, 07:50:18 PM »

Buggy Mercenary Officer Hiring?
Cant seem to hire mercinaries of any of the new factions
Every time i talk to one i just have the 1st option that would be (in vanilla) "interesting, what are your skills" to press over and over
on the bottom of the test it says "IndexOutOfBoundsException: Index: 1,Size 1"
Tried reinstalling and turning all of the mods off, it didnt help
Cant seem to find anyone mentioning this bug in the replies
Am i the only one with this problem? Am i missing something?
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #275 on: February 25, 2019, 08:45:20 AM »

Buggy Mercenary Officer Hiring?
Cant seem to hire mercinaries of any of the new factions
Every time i talk to one i just have the 1st option that would be (in vanilla) "interesting, what are your skills" to press over and over
on the bottom of the test it says "IndexOutOfBoundsException: Index: 1,Size 1"
Tried reinstalling and turning all of the mods off, it didnt help
Cant seem to find anyone mentioning this bug in the replies
Am i the only one with this problem? Am i missing something?

Hey there, welcome to the forums!

Yes that is a known bug that is already fixed for the next update, sorry!

I have something I am going to try to solve the other known bug (some market procurement missions aren't able to be turned in) and if that works I may update later today. I've been fighting a severe illness the last two days and that has slowed me down considerably.
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verlonxx

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #276 on: February 25, 2019, 12:52:13 PM »

sickness thats sad please get well
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didntnoagoodname

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #277 on: February 25, 2019, 05:06:37 PM »

Buggy Mercenary Officer Hiring?
Cant seem to hire mercinaries of any of the new factions
Every time i talk to one i just have the 1st option that would be (in vanilla) "interesting, what are your skills" to press over and over
on the bottom of the test it says "IndexOutOfBoundsException: Index: 1,Size 1"
Tried reinstalling and turning all of the mods off, it didnt help
Cant seem to find anyone mentioning this bug in the replies
Am i the only one with this problem? Am i missing something?

Hey there, welcome to the forums!

Yes that is a known bug that is already fixed for the next update, sorry!

I have something I am going to try to solve the other known bug (some market procurement missions aren't able to be turned in) and if that works I may update later today. I've been fighting a severe illness the last two days and that has slowed me down considerably.
Thanks so much for a fast reply, glad to know its not just me
Hope you get well soon and good luck in your future work
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FeudalWulf

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #278 on: February 26, 2019, 11:53:47 AM »

I've read around a bit, are you planning on adding the rest of the blueprint later? I got an Archean phase-tech blueprint with nothing on it, wondering if it's either a bug or something not yet added.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #279 on: February 26, 2019, 07:23:57 PM »

I've read around a bit, are you planning on adding the rest of the blueprint later? I got an Archean phase-tech blueprint with nothing on it, wondering if it's either a bug or something not yet added.

Hm, what tier does it say? You are talking about a blueprint package? It is likely supposed to have some weapons and ships attached, unless you happened to have found single blueprints for them all already, which I would think is unlikely. So probably a bug, but could be inadvertently fixed in the upcoming update.

sickness thats sad please get well

Thanks so much for a fast reply, glad to know its not just me
Hope you get well soon and good luck in your future work

Thank to you both, I am finally starting to feel much better. :)
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #280 on: February 27, 2019, 10:50:29 AM »

The update is ready, but I am waiting on a modding question to be answered that will determine if I need to make a couple very quick changes to special_items.csv before I release it- to solve the potential blueprint package bug.

*Edit (I may be able to do some tests with Console Commands to verify otherwise but I'm not sure on that yet.)
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Hiroyuchi

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #281 on: February 27, 2019, 10:23:54 PM »

A few others have mentioned this bug in here, but I might as well mention it too. I've run into a bug with delivery missions where occasionally after arriving at the destination it will not turn in. I have confirmed it is the correct location and that I have the required number of resources and that there is no specific NPC I need to contact. This particular mission was to deliver Ore to a Sci-corps station, and I know that I have had the same problem when delivering to an Archean Order world. It does not happen with every delivery mission, but both times it has happened have been with ones where you only need to dock at the location, but not every mission where you need to dock is bugged like this.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #282 on: February 27, 2019, 10:29:33 PM »

A few others have mentioned this bug in here, but I might as well mention it too. I've run into a bug with delivery missions where occasionally after arriving at the destination it will not turn in. I have confirmed it is the correct location and that I have the required number of resources and that there is no specific NPC I need to contact. This particular mission was to deliver Ore to a Sci-corps station, and I know that I have had the same problem when delivering to an Archean Order world. It does not happen with every delivery mission, but both times it has happened have been with ones where you only need to dock at the location, but not every mission where you need to dock is bugged like this.

Sorry! That is solved for the next update. It was an issue with the order of triggers from Rules.csv inadvertently skipping the turn in scripts. That, at least, wouldn't require a new game. (Though many of the next update's features would, so might be worthwhile to start one anyway)
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #283 on: February 28, 2019, 12:42:17 AM »

This update should fix most if not all the reported bugs and provide a pretty large amount of new content.

I also fixed blueprint spawning issues with packages, and tried to better level out the tech tier system as a whole when balanced against faction specific blueprint packages. Faction based blueprints also include an assortment of weapons those factions typically utilize.

The early game pd issues should be helped now that the player starts with larger starting fleets and stockpiles of light pd weapons at the start of a new game.

Enjoy and let me know if I missed any bugs. :)

Download
Main Mod Directory

Current Patch Changes: Update v1.3.1 2/28/2019
Spoiler

Content Additions

New Ships
  • Malevolent (Capital-class Dreadcarrier)

New Strike Craft
  • Mauler (Heavy Interceptor)
  • Mauler (Pirates)
  • Barbarian (Base Gunship)
  • Warrior (Lowtech Gunship)
  • Talon (Hegemony)
  • Talon (Luddic)
  • Talon (Tri-Tachyon)
  • Talon (Pirates)
  • Vanguard (Hegemony)
  • Vanguard (Luddic)
  • Warthog (Hegemony)
  • Warthog (Luddic)
  • Broadsword (Pirates)
  • Broadsword (Adamantine)

Campaign Changes/Additions
  • New/replaced stations for many major factions strongholds. Now there should be a lot more tactical diversity even among tech tiers.
  • Adamantine Consortium has a capital-class carrier and a unique heavy fighter(skin) added to their fleets.
  • Nightmare-class heavy fighter is now unique to the Archean Order's fleets.
  • Pirates have unique fighter(skins) added to their fleets.
  • Increased Adamantine Consortium aggression, reduced Archean Order and Trader Guilds aggression.
  • If not already present in the last patch, added Adamantine Consortium strongholds to the list of player colony threats.
  • Derelicts have increased in difficulty to match pirates. Pirates have had their fighter numbers considerably weakened.
  • Increased the starting player fleets for any new game start to roughly match early pirate bounties in size.
  • The two changes listed above should make either salvage or bounty hunting a good starting option for any new game.
  • Added most of the new game starts available to the base game from .9 to the Normal Start option list.
  • All new starts now contain a cargo freighter of some kind and a small supply of pd weapons.
  • Pirates now have unique fighter craft. These are considerably weaker than standard fighter craft, but can be deployed more easily.

Station Battles
  • Balanced most factions' station style to match their respective technological access and doctrine.
  • Upgraded the tier of some stations, and added some where none existed. The purpose was better faction balance.
  • Unique station looks and/or loadouts for Hegemony, Pirates, Sci-Corps and Luddic factions

Blueprint System
  • Added Blueprint Packages for Adamantine Consortium, Trader Guilds, Persean League, Sci-Corps and Tri-Tachyon Corporation.
  • Further separation of tech tiers with more base strike craft available at the start.
  • Higher tier versions of some base strike craft bp available as single drops or in the various tech/faction bp packages.
  • Added icons to all blueprint packages.
  • New legendary blueprint packages.


Balance Changes
  • Increased OP cost of Talon to 2 from 0. Its combat effectiveness remains unchanged. Pirate version has 0 OP requirement.
  • Hegemony now has slightly better fighter craft with a tactical focus on anti-ship weaponry. They no longer use bombers very often.
  • Luddic Church and Luddic Path have new fighter craft skins with unique loadouts.
  • Higher tier fighter craft has increased the Luddic factions' military potency by a noticeable degree. Not to the degree of the highest tier military powers, however.
  • Slightly adjusted sprite for Perdition to match its role as a Luddic heavy bomber. Now has two side-turret Machine Guns to support against interceptors.
  • Tri-Tachyon Corporation now has a heavy interceptor to support their advanced interceptor drones.
  • Hercules-class Heavy Gunship has had its primary turreted weapon upgraded to a dual cannon, and has an updated sprite.
  • Hydra-class Gunship has an updated sprite.
  • Added shield modules to the sides of Trader Guilds' battlestations. They were slightly weaker -defensively- than intended.
  • Changed rocket launch behavior. Only a minor adjustment in overall functionality, but a different start-up to full speed. (Reduced launch speed but greatly increased proj acceleration).
  • Marauder, Warthog, and Gauntlet are now base bps.
  • Vanguard is now a low_tech bp (tier 1).
  • Rebalanced Luddic Church Condor variants.
  • Increased Paragon's max flux by 8000, flux dissipation by 300, and armor by 300. It was slightly too weak compared to similar tiered vessels and sometimes couldn't make use of all its weapons when surrounded.
  • Reduced fighter replacement rates across the board. I put an extra special emphasis on drones and interceptors that seemed to spawn continuously, and tended to only slightly increase bomber deployment rates.
  • Increaed PD Beam damage by ~40%-70% accross the board. This won't interfere with missile effectiveness (other than make them better against torps which is their intended purpose).
  • Changed Advanced Optics hullmod to only increase PD beam weapons by 200su (down from 500su) to balance the large damage increase for those weapons.
  • Reduced the range bonus on PD weapons on ships equipping Super Computer hullmod by 10%.
  • Reduced the range bonus on PD weapons on ships equipping Advanced Targeting Core hullmod by 20%.
  • Reduced the flux cost of all Fire Support Missiles by ~50%.

Bug Fixes
  • Corrected issues with rockets sending flamed-out ships launching away at large speeds.
  • All assault and strike beams now pierce fighters. Fighters now take 60% less damage from beams.
  • Fixed Templar Strike variant's weapon groups.
  • Corrected Hegemony and Adamantine Consortium ship size in fleet doctrine.
  • Forlorn Hope mission's flagship is now the Escort variant of the Paragon instead of the Raider variant.
  • Corrected OP of Condor(A) variants.
  • Fixed bug when hiring faction officers, added text for faction administrators.
  • Fixed bug with procurement missions not able to be turned in.
  • Fixed bug with some bar missions not able to be turned in.
  • Fixed bug where your crew would not leave even if you owed them considerable debt.
  • Corrected issue with Tri-Tachyon blueprint package adding Persean League ships, fighters and weapons.
  • Fixed bug where blueprints of higher tiers were empty of hulls, weapons or wings.
[close]
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Hiroyuchi

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.1) Update 2/28
« Reply #284 on: February 28, 2019, 12:55:04 AM »

Sounds good! I haven't noticed any other bugs in my playthrough after about 20 cycles.
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