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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - *hotfix* 4/14/22  (Read 722499 times)

Ranakastrasz

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At first this mod was not flagged as a totalConversion in the mod_info file, then some folks commented on it and then it was flagged as such.

But now it appears the latest version is again not flagged as a TC when it really should be.

That was also at request amusingly enough. Some mods were fully compatable but were prevented because TC flag.

I don't have strong opinions either way. I am a modder, ao am already the kind of person to modify those settings myself.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

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MesoTroniK

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Well, trying to run it along side pretty much all mods will break said mods brutally. This is a headache for other modders, resulting in a nearly infinite number of both obvious and anomalous issues.

Archean Order *is* a TC, and not flagging it as one is illogical to say the least.

A Random Jolteon

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Well, trying to run it along side pretty much all mods will break said mods brutally. This is a headache for other modders, resulting in a nearly infinite number of both obvious and anomalous issues.

Archean Order *is* a TC, and not flagging it as one is illogical to say the least.
I'm pretty sure some mods may not be affected. Mods like Music mods, Combat chatter, Combat Radar, etc etc should be fine. (Been months since I last played with this mod, so I forget which mods I tried, and which ones worked and which ones didn't)
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MesoTroniK

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Right the problem is *far* more mods will explode on it than ones that will not.

And just because those in the know, and will be able to pick the scant few mods will that will work with it actually means nothing in the grand scheme of things. The *vast* majority of end users will not be so careful, and will turn on Archean Order along side mods it will not work with.

Running Archean Order alongside other mods, should be a power user opt-in. Making it not require an opt in via modifying one line in its mod_info is guaranteed to cause problems and the problems will be with those other mods not Archean Order while the source of the issues would be not those other mods.

Midnight Kitsune

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We don't want a repeat of a previous situation where a modder had a mod that was breaking other mods and causing crashes and it created tons of bug reports and yet the modder did not fix the simple issue (had a built in mod that was from another mod) for several months
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Ranakastrasz

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Makes sense. Wish the built in mod manager has a manual override.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire

Histidine

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FYI: mods designated as "utility" will already work with TCs and will not be deactivated in the mod menu when a TC is selected or vice-versa.

There may be some mods that don't do this when perhaps they should (Audio Plus is one, perhaps because it modifies some vanilla sounds).
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Morrokain

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Awesome mod! I can't sleep -_-

Thank you! I'm glad you are enjoying it! Definitely more to come. :)

At first this mod was not flagged as a totalConversion in the mod_info file, then some folks commented on it and then it was flagged as such.

But now it appears the latest version is again not flagged as a TC when it really should be.

Hey sorry about that! I actually already caught that bug and fixed it for next release... though time is an issue so not 100% sure when that will be. Could be days could be weeks. If it's sincerely worth a hotfix I can make that happen too. It was caused because I had deflagged it at one point to try out Combat Chatter, Targeting pip and a couple others and then completely forgot to reflag it back before I released my last update.  :-[

@Ranakastrasz
Will reply soon to feedback! Maybe later tonight if time.

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Ranakastrasz

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Yea, don't recall which one, but I use all three of those mods, and quite a few others, and it works fine. I wouldn't object to having to manually change the version.

After all, my perspective is quite skewed.

For a user-friendly thing, could make two copies, or have a readme explaining how to change it, or something.

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« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 12:00:52 PM by Ranakastrasz »
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire

Ranakastrasz

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The "Heavy Shockstorm Launcher" appears to have a massive knockback in some situations. Not sure exact condutions, but....

Saw this in the "Ambush" Mission.

Is this intended? if so, the tooltip should reflect it.

It doesn't seem to be the enemy's ship system or anything, so yea.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire

Morrokain

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Ah, the whole, Open fire, they are out of range, then the projectile is released. Yea, that ruins accuracy. Do guns track while spooling up? And do their turn speed slow down when spooling up? Either way, I can see the issue.
Yes to both.

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Hmm. In the command screen, there isn't a distinction between telling the carrier to escort and fighters to escort. Mainly because fighters are missiles now. Or something.
Yeah, you as the captain can do that by clicking an ally and pressing "z" to send fighters to escort, but the A.I is autowired in how it handles fighters other than explicit "send fighters to attack this ship" command. I think its called Fighter Strike. The AI is pretty good most of the time, but in the largest battles I do feel it often has the tendency to start a giant fighter furball that marauders across the battlespace like the loony toons' Tazmanian Devil. XD

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Like Pirates, which always fight. Is it possible to make that a hullmod you can remove?
Probably? I'm actually not 100% sure if I can edit that attribute with a hullmod instead of a skin file. I'll look into it.

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I meant that if you break through the shields, the Hyperion doesn't have much health behind it, so it highly likely to be overkilled enough it would just disinitigate into fragments instead of being potentially recoverable.
Oh! Yes that is very true. That prototype may be difficult to obtain until blueprints. Even then, if I have it my way it will take an epic quest chain and access to a crazy amount of resources to get that blueprint and manufacture one. :)

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And missiles don't really get effected, aside from autofire range.
A.I won't fire them until "within range" so it effects allies more profoundly than it does the player.

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There are two hullmods in vanilla. One that gives better flight deck stats (faster rearming and respawning) and one that adds flight decks to ships without them.
I actually can't recall exactly what you did with them.
The first one(deck stats) is unchanged. The second one now adds one flight deck to all ships regardless if they already have one. The exceptions are frigates and phase ships of course, but it adds 2 flight decks to capital ships!

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Yep. Just pointing out that Gyros also could resolve that problem. Faster turret turning speed and all.
Oh right yeah. I just don't want to over-saturate built in hullmods for something like that. If it affected the vessel's ability to effectively engage smaller, faster targets too much then I would reconsider that approach, but so far it doesn't appear to be the case. To be honest, I often die in The Captain's Gambit from losing track of the Tyrant then suddenly getting hit with concentrated Atronarch Beams after it uses its ship system to zoom up and close to firing range. I'm certainly no pro pilot or anything, though, so I don't know how much that counts for.  ::)

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Uhm, I was asking what it does. What all the fighter hullmods do while I'm at it, since you can't exactly view them ingame.... Should be part of the codex imo.
Agreed on the codex part, but then they are equipable in the refit screen in missions, I'm pretty sure. Can't have that.

Fighter-class Systems reduces energy weapon charges by 40%, lowers energy weapon damage by 66% and beams by 50%, and increases the fighter's damage to weapon and engine hardpoints by 50%
Warp Field prevents the engines from ever flaming out
Limited Range Finders reduces all weapons to 50% range past a 400 range threshold (similar to overdriven ships)

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Energy damage missiles eh? Huh. Might have been a different mod that had Ion torpedos that on impact added flux to the target directly.
That... Is a scary thought.
I haven't dug into weapon scripts just yet, but they certainly aren't off the table!

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Do fighter weapons still deal EMP, and as such the EMP resist hullmod effects it? If not, how does it work again?
The ship system makes all fighter weapons deal an extra 50% damage to engines and weapons built-in. Most weapons that had an EMP component for that sake have had it removed. If the weapon still has an EMP component, however, the fighters who have that weapon will still also cause EMP damage on top of the extra 50% (so gunships like Xyphos (has an Ion Pulser) are pretty nasty).

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Am a programmer, and I prefer being able to trace where the code goes. Usually you can goto the definition of a function easily, but notepad++ or w.e. can't do that. I guess if I was serious about Starsector modding, I might try to setup a proper environment.
Me too at this point, but I am more speaking to the higher percentage of casual modders who only want to get as technical as editing text files and maybe a spreadsheet here and there. That was how I started, and I stuck to those waters for a couple years, even when already coding C++ in VS. That in no way means an IDE like IntelliJ is not waaaaaay better because it is! But, "setup" is the key element here. You can't just install IntelliJ, open starsector with it somehow and get to work. It can take a fair amount of configuring and even then the IDE is just a finicky beast sometimes. Looking at you, Maven Dependencies.  :P

I guess my point is that there are tons of creative people out there who never cross that threshold even when it would inevitably make their modding lives a lot easier. I'm doing my best to accommodate both perspectives, but maybe I'm fooling myself. Rules.csv is powerful but also pretty confusing, and almost anything you would use my scripts for would also use that file.

For a user-friendly thing, could make two copies, or have a readme explaining how to change it, or something.
Yeah I think a readme would be a good idea while not causing problems for the rest of the modding community. I'll probably take that approach.

The "Heavy Shockstorm Launcher" appears to have a massive knockback in some situations. Not sure exact condutions, but....

Saw this in the "Ambush" Mission.

Is this intended? if so, the tooltip should reflect it.

It doesn't seem to be the enemy's ship system or anything, so yea.
I think it may be the high speed and a high impact? It also has to do with flameouts, but I'm unclear on the specifics. It's not completely intended, but makes sense with the weapon as a high end kinetic rocket. I'll add a blurb to the description.
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Ranakastrasz

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Yeah, you as the captain can do that by clicking an ally and pressing "z" to send fighters to escort, but the A.I is autowired in how it handles fighters other than explicit "send fighters to attack this ship" command. I think its called Fighter Strike. The AI is pretty good most of the time, but in the largest battles I do feel it often has the tendency to start a giant fighter furball that marauders across the battlespace like the loony toons' Tazmanian Devil. XD
Huh. I've seen said furballs myself, but it tends to just be between the two fleets, and acts as a projectile shield... Well more of an Anti-beam shield actually. Beams get stuck on fighters constantly.
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Oh! Yes that is very true. That prototype may be difficult to obtain until blueprints. Even then, if I have it my way it will take an epic quest chain and access to a crazy amount of resources to get that blueprint and manufacture one. :)
Dear god why.
Yes, Quests and other stuff like that would be awesome.
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Agreed on the codex part, but then they are equipable in the refit screen in missions, I'm pretty sure. Can't have that.

Fighter-class Systems reduces energy weapon charges by 40%, lowers energy weapon damage by 66% and beams by 50%, and increases the fighter's damage to weapon and engine hardpoints by 50%
Warp Field prevents the engines from ever flaming out
Limited Range Finders reduces all weapons to 50% range past a 400 range threshold (similar to overdriven ships)
That clears things up. If you ever add hullmods to fighters, it has to be documented somewhere, because it ain't in the codex, and it ain't available ingame anywhere.

Warp field. Huh. Does that work by adding like 100000% more health or is there an actual invulnerability flag?
Rangefinders. That makes sense. Cuts half of the range past 400 range, but a 450 range will go to 425, not 225, right?
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I haven't dug into weapon scripts just yet, but they certainly aren't off the table!

I just recall an "Ion Torpedo" that did that. Don't recall what mod that was though.
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The ship system makes all fighter weapons deal an extra 50% damage to engines and weapons built-in. Most weapons that had an EMP component for that sake have had it removed. If the weapon still has an EMP component, however, the fighters who have that weapon will still also cause EMP damage on top of the extra 50% (so gunships like Xyphos (has an Ion Pulser) are pretty nasty).
Huh. So you can just add damage to weapons/engines without EMP trait, and you removed the usage of EMP for that.
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I think it may be the high speed and a high impact? It also has to do with flameouts, but I'm unclear on the specifics. It's not completely intended, but makes sense with the weapon as a high end kinetic rocket. I'll add a blurb to the description.

Hmm. Do projectiles have a Mass? Admittedly the physics simulation is weird anyway, or at least engines make a lot of it be partly ignored.
Kinetic damage is not kinetic energy, so yea.
I will try and see if a flameout was involved.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire

Morrokain

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Huh. I've seen said furballs myself, but it tends to just be between the two fleets, and acts as a projectile shield... Well more of an Anti-beam shield actually. Beams get stuck on fighters constantly.
Once upon a time, I fiddled with piercing beams (through fighters) because of that issue in larger fights. It didn't go well. Either it simply didn't work, or it created an error that I couldn't solve. I may revisit it to see if it's now possible at some point.

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Dear god why.
Yes, Quests and other stuff like that would be awesome.
A few of those are actually already in the tutorial (an more extended and story-based version of the stock tutorial with defined characters and player choices leading to different outcomes). But I need to better learn the battle context before I can lay the finishing touches to things. In my knowledge, I don't think it's been done quite like this in a mod before, and I'm really exited to release it.

That being said, the method I used to implement said mission arcs is ~90% for sure to change in .9, so that is something to factor in when considering anything past the tutorial for now.

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That clears things up. If you ever add hullmods to fighters, it has to be documented somewhere, because it ain't in the codex, and it ain't available ingame anywhere.

Warp field. Huh. Does that work by adding like 100000% more health or is there an actual invulnerability flag?
Rangefinders. That makes sense. Cuts half of the range past 400 range, but a 450 range will go to 425, not 225, right?
It's 500x the health and 90% damage reduction. I've never seen a claw flame out. Destroyed in one hit maybe...

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Huh. So you can just add damage to weapons/engines without EMP trait, and you removed the usage of EMP for that.
With a built in hullmod for fighters, yes. EMP implementation was weapon-specific, which made it necessary to give balance trade offs that weren't strictly necessary without the EMP component. A hullmod allowed me to separate those two dependencies.

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Hmm. Do projectiles have a Mass? Admittedly the physics simulation is weird anyway, or at least engines make a lot of it be partly ignored.
Kinetic damage is not kinetic energy, so yea.
I will try and see if a flameout was involved.

I don't know for sure, but flamed out missiles and ships/fighters are a different "hit class", so that may be why the collision behavior is different than what you would normally expect.
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Ranakastrasz

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Once upon a time, I fiddled with piercing beams (through fighters) because of that issue in larger fights. It didn't go well. Either it simply didn't work, or it created an error that I couldn't solve. I may revisit it to see if it's now possible at some point.
Huh. According to the wiki The tactical beam penetrates missiles without being disrupted.
It is an interesting problem, and I have no idea how it might be resolved.
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It's 500x the health and 90% damage reduction. I've never seen a claw flame out. Destroyed in one hit maybe...
Well, you clearly haven't fired enough ION blasts at one.
You can't give it 100% damage reduction? Do some things ignore 100% resistance?
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I don't know for sure, but flamed out missiles and ships/fighters are a different "hit class", so that may be why the collision behavior is different than what you would normally expect.
Yea, The simulation is complex, and I don't really know the rules.
I recall a beam weapon that caused fighters to flame out and spin in circles. No idea what mod it was though, and I have no idea how it happened.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire

Ranakastrasz

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The Template A class appears to have the Phase field hullmod, but uses shields instead.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire
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