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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update 12/19/21  (Read 481173 times)

Albreo

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1605 on: November 22, 2021, 05:50:38 AM »

So, you can spend 4 op for the range and burstyness of a Graviton Beam (Which technically would be better anti-armor being a delivery of 600 damage in a burst) that can't be retasked a PD and fire through your own ships, but then low tech ships can just flicker their sheilds unless you're right next to them with torpedoes ready to go or have enough nearby threat for them to be willing to risk an overload. And with how long flux disipation takes in this mod and how well the coding works, they're not going to do that unless they'd die anyway or have a good retreat path while overloaded. Or you're lucky.

Do you mean Gravitron "Driver" and not beam? You can always mix and match multiple weapon types in one group that will be fired together. For example, I can put my Gravitron Driver in a group together with Heavy Ion Cannon. In this situation, the enemy ship risks losing all frontal weapons if it ever thinks about lowering the shield.

Since the High-tech class isn't supposed to have a kinetic projectile weapon. The stat is lower than its ballistic counterpart to discourage usage but is still an option.

@Morrokain
Yeah, I always prefer it because it's dirt cheap and works pretty well. In a huge fight with 30+ crafts running at you, it also works great at mowing them down. Usually quicker than projectile PD but not as fast as AoE PD.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1606 on: November 22, 2021, 11:15:52 AM »

Yeah, I always prefer it because it's dirt cheap and works pretty well. In a huge fight with 30+ crafts running at you, it also works great at mowing them down. Usually quicker than projectile PD but not as fast as AoE PD.

That makes sense. The firing delay makes it harder for the weapon to handle missiles as well as projectile PD - sort of similar to how AOE PD like Flak operates in the same way but just a circle of protection instead of a line in that case. Supplementing fast firing projectile PD enhances the overall defense zone most of the time by picking off low health stragglers of missiles or wings. If the Assault Beam cannot also operate as an assault weapon in the same way that a Pulse Cannon can then I think it will feel like more of a choice despite the low OP cost.

@5ColouredWalker
Also, I forgot to comment on the Gatling Laser. I think that weapon and its medium variant are deceptively good. The AI is pretty good about using weapons like that one and the Terminator Beam on armor to maximize the magazines' overall dps - which is substantial in that scenario due to the 50% boost.

The thing that is difficult to translate to the stat card is those weapon's projectile/beam speed mean that you can sneak in armor shots between the shield lowering and raising again. The AI is mediocre at it while the player can really emphasize that strategy. For those reasons, I think they are probably fine. They do stink against shields and it sucks when they AI wastes charges on them, but overall I think you would find a lot of use for them in the early and mid game. Admittedly there might be better options in the late game but even then they both have relatively low OP and so niche builds should still remain viable.
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5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1607 on: November 22, 2021, 11:41:41 PM »

Do you mean Gravitron "Driver" and not beam? You can always mix and match multiple weapon types in one group that will be fired together. For example, I can put my Gravitron Driver in a group together with Heavy Ion Cannon. In this situation, the enemy ship risks losing all frontal weapons if it ever thinks about lowering the shield.

Since the High-tech class isn't supposed to have a kinetic projectile weapon. The stat is lower than its ballistic counterpart to discourage usage but is still an option.
No, I mean beam.
Which is extra amusing because the Gravitron Driver is a kinetic projectile weapon. Fire Support I think, given it's (relatively) high flux costs and long range. Does even more damage, might have ammo... I think it sits at 15 OP.

As for mixing damage types, yes that's doable. I usually go for Raw damage rather than emp, but using EMP weapons has been moving me more towards EMP. Time to kill is slower, but when things are so much tougher in this mod the extra time is less important than keeping them from firing back, which is why Bolters and Heavy Bolters seem so powerful. (I was testing Eagle builds in 1v1 simulations when I first got one... I had a build that stomped the pirate varieties with ease, but unless I had a Heavy Bolter/Tachyon lance the midline ones just shredded it with their Heavy Bolters.)


@5ColouredWalker
Also, I forgot to comment on the Gatling Laser. I think that weapon and its medium variant are deceptively good. The AI is pretty good about using weapons like that one and the Terminator Beam on armor to maximize the magazines' overall dps - which is substantial in that scenario due to the 50% boost.

The thing that is difficult to translate to the stat card is those weapon's projectile/beam speed mean that you can sneak in armor shots between the shield lowering and raising again. The AI is mediocre at it while the player can really emphasize that strategy. For those reasons, I think they are probably fine. They do stink against shields and it sucks when they AI wastes charges on them, but overall I think you would find a lot of use for them in the early and mid game. Admittedly there might be better options in the late game but even then they both have relatively low OP and so niche builds should still remain viable.

You have a point on stat cards having trouble saying things like that.
I've just math'd out how long it'd take the future nerf assault beam to match the Gatling Laser, and it looks like I might be underestimating it, especially if I pack expanded ammo, unless fighting low tech cruisers/capitals. The Medium one looked fine to me however I've been preferring the greater versatility of Dual-Tacs and Phase Beams. Which with the mod for extra armor damage might be better anyway, despite having long reload times. Also they have the benefit of being far faster projectiles as beams.



As an aside for the Mora, I recently went up against a Mora with an Apogee, which ended up being one sided against the Mora.
Large missile slots was an energy missile, left and right front missile tubes are the Kinetic-EMP Mervs, and the center front is a Reaper Rack.

Kinetics quickly force the shield down and apply broad EMP prevented it from doing anything with it's weapons while it had enough shields/fighters/PD kept the fighters from bringing down the Apogee immediately. I now know how to counter Mora's while exploring. It's also not a broad counter I can just leave alone since it can be overwhelmed by massed Frigates/Destroyers/Surprisingly competent Cruiser-Grade Derelicts. (The Ramming one knows what it's doing and packs enough kinetics to surprise me every now and again.)

I am having fun using built in Flux Capaciters on all my dedicated combat ships. That plus the skills for extra flux capacity and +10 max sink/vents slots leads to very tanky high tech shields.

Oh, recently got my hands on a Doom. It seems you've nerfed the Mine Strike by slowing deployment way down. On one hand I'm sad, on the other, with the phase skill changes and everything else it seems to be a balanced ship, and the Mine Strike is still really good at taking out fighter swarms. (It also seems to hit phased ships, but that afflictor might have been coming out of phase when it went off.)
Speaking of it, and then of Afflictors, Hunter Missiles make very good Point Defence missiles with their maneuverability and damage. Are they intended to be that good? They don't reload quick so shouldn't be treated as dedicated ones, and the AI doesn't use them for that, but I figured I'd bring it up. I do use ECCM if that matters in your assessment.

Finally for Afflictors, you've swapped the system between the Afflictor and Harbinger, and Afflictors show up a lot more than Harbingers. On one hand, trying them myself they only seemed ok, and perhaps a good swap with Afflictors less able to take advantage of the system. On the other hand, Pirates are really good at exploiting the system to turn high-tech ships into shrapnel in larger battlers as opposed to using Afflictors vs Low Tech ships. I've taken to deploying Low Tech ships more often specifically because of them. Not asking for a nerf or anything, just sharing the observation.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1608 on: November 25, 2021, 08:56:50 AM »

@5ColouredWalker

Nice I'm glad Moras aren't as hard as before and you've discovered a few good overall strategies.

The Doom Mine nerf was necessary to prevent it from being too powerful in the player's hands. I can understand the disappointment though if you are used to the Vanilla version. It used to have the time acceleration system but the AI wasn't very good at using it.  Its much better using the mines.

The Afflictor is meant to be one of the scarier things to encounter in pirate fleets because of its system. It also introduces new players to phase ships that are otherwise pretty rare unless you are fighting the Adamantine Consortium. In that sense I'm pleased that they are dangerous enough to warrant using some heavy armor.

Hunters are a high end versatile missile. They are really good at taking down smaller faster targets like frigates (even fighters) and their speed (especially with ECCM) and maneuverability make them more difficult for PD to handle in large quantities. They are balanced by the limited magazine and the reasonably high flux cost to fire. So, while it certainly is a good missile I don't think its too good. Its just really versatile instead of the heavy specialization that other missiles typically have. There are other, rarer weapons that have similar roles but also have a few differences such as range and cost, etc.
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5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1609 on: November 27, 2021, 02:26:48 AM »

Did some fiddling with starts and I noticed that the Adamantine Consortium and Trade League are 'Welcoming' with each other. (Positive relations)

After checking it turns out to be a Nex incompatibility. A pretty funny one... That said I'm now insanely jealous of their Tarsi, even if it screws with using Militarized Ships for combat due to them taking up OP. Being Energy based makes them decent miners though (6 pulse lasers for 9 mining + Expanded Bays for mining drones.)

Finally regarding them, you might want to take a look at Shattercells the same way you looked at Cutlass Lasers. They're less OP efficient and don't shoot through ships, but as kinetic PD they step on the Grav Beam in the same way. I'm not sure they need nerfing since (at least from memory) their OP cost means you're trading range and around 100dps for use as PD which makes the damage less consistant as it retargets towards missiles/fighters. (Something I didn't note with Assault Beams, because it didn't stand out as much.)


While I'm not to the stage of late game content (I keep fiddling around with early-mid stuff and missing other mods) I'm wanting to try my hand converting stuff for use with Archean Order.
While there's some level of guidelines for Weapons for conversion (You've set DPS thresholds of roughly 2/3/4 hundred per level, which mainly applies to Assault Weapons, with PD tending to have +100 except for Pulse Lasers and Shattercells. Shattercells being Kinetic and Pulse Lasers being energy based Vulcans), do you have any guidelines for converting ships beyond diversifying weapon mount types, making flux disapation around shield flux output, and slightly increasing weapon mount numbers for combat ships? (They tend to have slightly more weapons in this mod to my notice.)

From what I've noticed Shields generally have Dam-Flux conversions of 1.2-3/1ish/.7ish for Low/Mid/High tech. High Tech tends to have around 3* the armor of low tech while High Tech has much higher flux reserves and often has 360 degree shields while low and mid tech tend to be smaller.


I've never tried my hand at modding so I'm not going to be posting anything for sharing anytime soon (And I'd run it past you and relevent mod authors before doing so.), but figured it'd be worth asking for anyone who wants to do conversions rather than asking you to do the work.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1610 on: November 27, 2021, 10:14:11 AM »

Nex has some configuration that I cannot override and so the intended relations wont be maintained if running the mod alongside Nex I'm afraid. I can't remember all that this affects.

Shattercell Cannon: this weapon is a funny one but I think its balanced. It is really good against light missiles and fighters and very bad against any wings with decent armor. Similar to the Pulse Laser it sort of acts as a finisher for low health things since it can retarget easily. So while it is intended to be used as a support assault weapon at close range, it trades PD effectiveness to do it. Its OP cost is also a balancing component.

As far as conversions go, my baseline is about 5-6 small weapons per frigate, 3 medium weapons and 5 small weapons per destroyer, 5-7 medium weapons and 6-8 small weapons per cruiser along with 2 flight decks, and capitals have 4 large weapons, 8 mediums and around 20 small weapons and 2-4 flight decks. For changing things up, the conversion rate of weapons is 3 of the smaller ones equals one of the next size up. So for instance you could trade 3 mediums for a large on a cruiser, etc. You can also trade defense or increase DP.

Just a note: Unless you are satisfied doing the conversion for your own personal use I'd ask the mod author first before starting work on it. There was someone else who made a conversion and they never got permission to post it. So that is a real possibility. I myself don't mind though. Just figured I'd let you know.
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Fakalljakall

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1611 on: December 07, 2021, 08:30:45 AM »

Hi, great mod. Is it possible to change the battle size? In my settings it's 500 but I changed in the files to 1000.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1612 on: December 07, 2021, 02:34:06 PM »

Hi, great mod. Is it possible to change the battle size? In my settings it's 500 but I changed in the files to 1000.

Hi thanks! Yes, but you have to change the setting in the mod folder settings file as it overrides the vanilla settings file by default for a few things - including max and default battle sizes.
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MightyChristian

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1613 on: December 08, 2021, 03:50:00 PM »

Without giving anything away, is there any advancement of the "Omega core"/ [redacted] fleet(s)/lore in this mod?
Like in game story, ships, weapons, etc.
:D thanks!
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Soli Deo gloria.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1614 on: December 09, 2021, 10:05:43 AM »

@MightyChristian

There are some new REDACTED that have lore components in their descriptions, and one mission (outside of the campaign) that briefly touches on a couple things. Other than that? Not yet...

The bulk of the planned lore is in production and a lot of it should hopefully be in the next update. That is still several-many months away though sorry I've had to slow things down a bit.
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MightyChristian

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1615 on: December 12, 2021, 05:46:30 PM »

@Morrokain

Awesome! Thanks!
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Soli Deo gloria.
And have a nice day :D

(PS: My profile icon was taken from a meme edited into a christian meme and then cropped to his face which I then added the words repent to. Just to satisfy your curiosity.)

scott324

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1616 on: December 13, 2021, 11:51:40 AM »

Having an issue with the skill tree, I have no other mods running besides LazyLib and for some reason, the scaling is just super off and doesn't allow me to see further skills in the tree. See attached picture. Running the latest StarSector update, 0.95.1a-RC5.

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Albreo

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1617 on: December 14, 2021, 08:05:53 PM »

An actual skill tree should look like this.

Yours definitely have something wrong with it. When you reinstall the AO mod, be sure to delete the old folder first and not to replace it. Recheck Lazylib version as well. I would appreciate it if you could post your mod list screen.
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Neliahawk

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1618 on: December 15, 2021, 12:27:33 AM »

maybe its starsector version 0.95.1a   (the new .1 version)
that is messing with the skill tree as it changed the vanilla skilltree.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 12:29:20 AM by Neliahawk »
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scott324

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Re: [0.95a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - New REDACTED 8/13/21
« Reply #1619 on: December 15, 2021, 07:22:11 AM »

An actual skill tree should look like this.

Yours definitely have something wrong with it. When you reinstall the AO mod, be sure to delete the old folder first and not to replace it. Recheck Lazylib version as well. I would appreciate it if you could post your mod list screen.



Not having any issues with any other mods, as well as LazyLib (and mods that require LazyLib as well like Nexelerin).

Redownloaded both LazyLib and AO and skill tree is still "long".

Also attempted to change resolution and remove full screen in-case it was some sort of graphical error, but then again I don't have this issue unless I am running AO with my mod list.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 07:25:42 AM by scott324 »
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