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Author Topic: Colony Management  (Read 68112 times)

Thaago

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2017, 09:42:46 PM »

My crude chemical explosives ares ready. :P

This all looks awesome! Do you have any plans to have missions to acquire exotic components for industries? I've had this longing to hunt down a domain era mothership, scavenge its autofactory, install it on a super rich world, and crank out battleships. For... humanitarian purposes. Kind of like hunting down Redacted's for mutinous death robots helpful AI buddies, only requiring a large cargo capacity.

I've always imagined that alpha AI cores would be quite subtle and long term in their thinking. For example, if there is a system within range with a REDACTED REDACTED in it, perhaps it syphons off some of the outpost's shipping and diverts resources there - suddenly the Redacted are spreading! (Wait a minute, didn't that outpost used to make more money?)

Also, how will you deal with battles involving player outposts and the player not being there? It can take a good number of weeks to cross from one side of the sector to another after all... perhaps invading fleets are loath to engage planetary defenses, so sieges are relatively common? With the player either attempting to run a blockade or break the siege.
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TaLaR

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2017, 09:48:03 PM »

- Can we put officers in storage to temporarily reduce salary costs, if we don't need them right now? (For that matter, how are crew in a Storage submarket handled?)

Can't put officers into storage. Crew will cost the 1% storage fee, same as cargo, no salary.

Can we get at least some form of going over Officer capacity (storage, or just unlimited number of *unassigned* officers). They are narrowly specialized and having to fire and re-train new officers when you want to change fleet composition (no carriers <-> carriers, high tech <->armor based, kiter <-> aggro) is wildly suboptimal.
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Embercloud

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2017, 11:43:34 PM »

Do you need to be in range of a comm array to assign construction tasks for you colonies?
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Soychi

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2017, 12:05:40 AM »

*Fist Pump* Cause I'm pumped! Also, called the solstice timing! Thanks for the update Alex, looks fantastic!
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arcibalde

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2017, 01:16:36 AM »

Wait a minute, are you telling us that AI took 'ur jobs as administrator as well? When will this stop!



 :P


Anyway i'm glad that this little gem of a game getting more better and completed. 
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Cycerin

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2017, 02:22:13 AM »

I can now look back, reading this, and think about all the initial exploration I did when 0.8 had just come out and how satisfying it would be to tie it together through starting an outpost/faction. It makes me feel hyped up.

This is going in the right direction, for sure. I'm really curious as to how deep you are going to sink your fingers into the whole Nexerelin style "faction warfare" with this update, too. Stuff like random events and news between factions, faction alliances, factions invading markets and waging war, stuff like that.
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Histidine

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2017, 04:01:47 AM »

Will something to keep the player from just snapping up all the "pre-surveyed" planets in the core systems be needed? Like the existing factions already claiming them and getting mad at squatters.
Perhaps they're simply economically marginal; would explain why the big factions haven't already settled them.

Not having tariffs would incentivize the player to only sell stuff at their own market and that'd be annoying to always have to do. Plus it'd just break a lot of stuff as far as prices and what's profitable.
I was thinking that this actually won't be true in most cases, because of fuel costs. Even if a player-held market is close to/inside the core worlds, it may not have enough demand for the right commodities to compete with other nearby markets.

Once the player conquers the major markets, though...
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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2017, 04:53:07 AM »

From the sounds of Alpha cores administrators, that sounds like "Wish: More XP (and money)" that will result in a fight with major demons or something.  In other words, if player wants a fight (or more rare loot), stick an Alpha Core admin in a colony that outlived its usefulness (because player found better), let it take over, then farm the never-ending streams of Remnants for rare items and/or destroy its battlestation.

Can we get at least some form of going over Officer capacity (storage, or just unlimited number of *unassigned* officers). They are narrowly specialized and having to fire and re-train new officers when you want to change fleet composition (no carriers <-> carriers, high tech <->armor based, kiter <-> aggro) is wildly suboptimal.
That has prevented me from trying Pilum spam fleet.  I could not be bothered to train ten Timid officers for the purpose of assigning them to Pilum Vigilances, then fire them for more replacements later.

So far, I use generalist officers I can plug into any ship.  As for carrier skills, all I want for officers is Carrier Command 3 and Wing Commander 1, and given the way carrier skills are forced, I need to delay getting them until level 16 (due to game forcing nothing but carrier skills as soon as officer gets one).
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Regoso

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2017, 09:03:01 AM »

Would be awesome if then None AI admins had a chance of going rogue (turning into a pirate/independent outpost) if things are going too well for your outpost(you have a lot of money being made from a black market and weak and or strong defenses(pirate) or going too bad from mismanagement (colony thinks it can do better on its own because of a lack of admin and there is a over abundance of defenses and or money(Independent).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 09:13:08 AM by Regoso »
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Techhead

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2017, 10:03:52 AM »

From the sounds of Alpha cores administrators, that sounds like "Wish: More XP (and money)" that will result in a fight with major demons or something.  In other words, if player wants a fight (or more rare loot), stick an Alpha Core admin in a colony that outlived its usefulness (because player found better), let it take over, then farm the never-ending streams of Remnants for rare items and/or destroy its battlestation.
Alternatively, it might *** off the signatories of the Second AI War Treaty and have them knocking on your doorstep.
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LazyWizard

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2017, 10:09:21 AM »

"Local Resources" is a mechanism for converting cargo-units into economy-units and vice versa, basically, if that makes sense.
On the other hand, you can take stuff the colony produces for free, from the Local Resources submarket.

Economy units go up by orders of magnitude, right? Is it possible to make a market big enough that you could "borrow" enough resources to supply your fleet without tanking the colony's economy?


(Who's gonna sell illegal drugs to the President? Gotta be a trap.)

Yep, that - I'm sure they've got black markets, but what kind of fool is going to tell you about it?

I don't know what you're talking about. I am but a simple merchant.
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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2017, 10:38:35 AM »

This all looks awesome! Do you have any plans to have missions to acquire exotic components for industries? I've had this longing to hunt down a domain era mothership, scavenge its autofactory, install it on a super rich world, and crank out battleships. For... humanitarian purposes. Kind of like hunting down Redacted's for mutinous death robots helpful AI buddies, only requiring a large cargo capacity.

Not necessarily for missions as such, but, yeah, hunting down a Domain mothership is like a player-driven mission, right? That's been sort of the point behind the breadcrumbs the probes/survey ships leave. And it would make a lot of sense for high-end exploration content (such as the mothership) to provide high-end colony-building rewards.


I've always imagined that alpha AI cores would be quite subtle and long term in their thinking. For example, if there is a system within range with a REDACTED REDACTED in it, perhaps it syphons off some of the outpost's shipping and diverts resources there - suddenly the Redacted are spreading! (Wait a minute, didn't that outpost used to make more money?)

:-X

Also, how will you deal with battles involving player outposts and the player not being there? It can take a good number of weeks to cross from one side of the sector to another after all... perhaps invading fleets are loath to engage planetary defenses, so sieges are relatively common? With the player either attempting to run a blockade or break the siege.

With enough caveats to fill half the Sector - yeah, sieges or something like. There are layers of planetary defenses and the idea is that reducing them takes time, and some layers *have* to be reduced before certain actions can be taken, but I really don't want to get into the detals just yet.


Can we get at least some form of going over Officer capacity (storage, or just unlimited number of *unassigned* officers). They are narrowly specialized and having to fire and re-train new officers when you want to change fleet composition (no carriers <-> carriers, high tech <->armor based, kiter <-> aggro) is wildly suboptimal.

Hmm. So oddly enough, I'd just added the ability to go over capacity in both officers and admins, but the reason for that is so you can still find them in sleeper pods while exploring. The over-max admins/offices can't be assigned until some are dismissed, so it wouldn't quite work for this situation.

Let me think about it. I'm not entirely sure that changing fleet compositions drastically is a thing that needs to be supported with maximum flexibility. At this point, there's no real time pressure, so you *can* do it by dismissing and re-training, but if that changes, then that may be less of an issue since it won't be as practical in the face of continued demands on your fleet.


Do you need to be in range of a comm array to assign construction tasks for you colonies?

You don't, no. Presumably you can send orders by courier or you had the foresight to leave sealed orders or something.

I'm also reconsidering exactly how comm relays factor in to comms - I think some aspects of them are neat, but having to be near one to get certain information is becoming increasingly troublesome.


*Fist Pump* Cause I'm pumped! Also, called the solstice timing! Thanks for the update Alex, looks fantastic!

:)

Wait a minute, are you telling us that AI took 'ur jobs as administrator as well? When will this stop!

Hah! Also, "this colony's entire infrastructure has been repurposed to mine bitcoin, sorry, no power left over for life support."


I can now look back, reading this, and think about all the initial exploration I did when 0.8 had just come out and how satisfying it would be to tie it together through starting an outpost/faction. It makes me feel hyped up.

Cool! Yeah, the whole point of exploration - from the start - has been to connect up to colonizing. But it just wasn't in place, and I'm super excited that finally some of these larger pieces can fit together the way they're supposed to.


I'm really curious as to how deep you are going to sink your fingers into the whole Nexerelin style "faction warfare" with this update, too. Stuff like random events and news between factions, faction alliances, factions invading markets and waging war, stuff like that.

I'm not entirely sure myself. Some amount of "this fleet is coming to wreck your colony and you really ought to consider stopping it" needs to be in place, but given the sheer amount of other things that need to be done, I'm not sure how much time there'll be to elaborate on that.


Will something to keep the player from just snapping up all the "pre-surveyed" planets in the core systems be needed? Like the existing factions already claiming them and getting mad at squatters.
Perhaps they're simply economically marginal; would explain why the big factions haven't already settled them.

Probably? Maybe? Was thinking about faction "claim beacons", or maybe they just wait a bit and then come claim it for themselves once it's doing well. Since some of those planets are randomly generated, they may or may not be desirable in the first place. But yeah, it'd be weird if the Hegemony was ok with you colonizing and building up militarily right next to Coatl, etc.


I was thinking that this actually won't be true in most cases, because of fuel costs. Even if a player-held market is close to/inside the core worlds, it may not have enough demand for the right commodities to compete with other nearby markets.

Once the player conquers the major markets, though...

I see what you mean, yeah. But it just seems like asking for trouble in various scenarios if things deviate at all from an ideal path where it's not an issue.

From the sounds of Alpha cores administrators, that sounds like "Wish: More XP (and money)" that will result in a fight with major demons or something.  In other words, if player wants a fight (or more rare loot), stick an Alpha Core admin in a colony that outlived its usefulness (because player found better), let it take over, then farm the never-ending streams of Remnants for rare items and/or destroy its battlestation.

No comment!

Ok, I will comment that putting AI cores into admin roles would generally speaking be a valid choice, not a *straight up* trap. I mean, I may be mean, but I'm not *that* mean, am I? Or am I?



Would be awesome if then None AI admins had a chance of going rogue (turning into a pirate/independent outpost) if things are going too well for your outpost(you have a lot of money being made from a black market and weak and or strong defenses(pirate) or going too bad from mismanagement (colony thinks it can do better on its own because of a lack of admin and there is a over abundance of defenses and or money(Independent).

Hmm, we'll see. I've got a list of potential difficulties for you to run into; just a question of turning it into something cohesive. Explicitly taking an outpost away without considerable forewarning seems quite harsh, though.


Economy units go up by orders of magnitude, right? Is it possible to make a market big enough that you could "borrow" enough resources to supply your fleet without tanking the colony's economy?

The "order of magnitude" thing is only in theory. In practice, it's currently linear-ish, and likely to stay close to that. (size 1 = 0.2, 2 = 0.3, 3 = 0.5, 4 = 1, 5 = 2, 6 = 3, etc)

Actual order-of-magnitude numbers get waaaaay out of hand too quickly, even if it's base 2. That said, I'd like the player to be able to eventually grab enough resources without tanking the economy, yes. Hopefully I'll be able to make the numbers work there.

Btw, taking stuff out of "Local Resources" - at least, as of this writing - won't negatively impact the economy. It's really just "surplus + skimming off the top" that gets used when there are shortages, but the player can take stuff out at any time without consequence. Buying on the open market, though *can* impact the economy some.

I don't know what you're talking about. I am but a simple merchant.

Hah, that's awesome!
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AspirantEmperor

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2017, 12:06:19 PM »

Will we be able to kill the smugglers who come to our planet without loosing reputation with the independent? Because as it stands, the independent are one of the best ways to get capital ships, given they don't require a commission. And I like having capital ships, but I don't like allowing criminals to undermine my own markets.

Also, I am looking forward to this so much. There's something slightly painful about floating above a needle-in-a-haystack, completely-habitable, resource-rich world and thinking "yea, survey data on you will be worth a few hundred thousand to the right buyer, and then I'll never come back here again... what a waste." That'll completely change once this is added.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 12:13:20 PM by AspirantEmperor »
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2017, 12:31:10 PM »

I will admit that while much of this stuff excites me, some of it worries me quite a bit, specifically salaries and the start of the game, Alpha core trap options and the ever increasing need for the player to become the "bard" of the game (gives everyone all the buffs while they do all the fun stuff)

-Salaries and newbies: SS already has a BRUTAL start, even with the tutorial that no one ever takes. And now with salaries, I feel like it is going to cause even more death spirals because now the new player is going to have TWO monthly supply drains to worry about at least. Many times I read about players that struggle to make ends meet. Now they are gonna have to worry about packing enough supplies, fuel and now credits.
Alot of these changes add difficulty to the whole game but only add content to the later game. One thing that I would suggest is adding on to the current tutorial and basically have the PC work for the Indies or Heg for a bit before being given full rights to the Abandoned Station in Corvus, along with the ability to turn it into a "mini outpost" that doesn't take up an outpost spot but can't grow beyond a certain size nor take on very many or certain industries but it would also give them a small but constant income. This way the player would be taught how to set up and run outposts in the early game and would have some cashflow offsetting the salaries
Also, how will salaries and monthly income be payed out? Per day? Week? Month? I would suggest that both of these be given at once and at the same interval so that newbie players don't screw themselves by spending all their money on supplies and fuel and ships and not saving for when that monthly paycheck comes due

-Alpha Cores, The Expensive Trap: Even with how little you have mentioned about ACs and their negative effects, I still can't help but see them as a trap option with your comments and the fact that they not only have all three admin skills but also have no salary to pay and are SUPER rare. (seriously, cores became stupid rare after .81) And tying this in with the previous part of my post, this could lead to: *** off some of the most powerful and numerous factions, tons of micromanagement and or comparing monthly incomes to see if something is different/ wrong and or the loss of a high level ship or hell, the whole outpost! Any one of these could send the newbie player into a death spiral.
Example: Install Alpha as admin in one of my few or only outposts, oops I *** off the Heg, oops I got attacked/ sieged / blockaded, oops I prepared at nearby market to stop said attack/ blockade only now due to the lower stability I have negative income and I am bleeding credits, oops now I just lost a high level officer (and the possibility of a ship and or cargo) and some crew and oops now don't have the combat strength to drive the Heg away and oops, now I death-spiral my way into poverty, despair and boredom. 0/10 would not recommend.

-Skills and the battle between combat fun and being able to run an empire fun: While I agree that some skills need to be condensed into other skills, shrinking the level cap is going to hurt us even more, especially with aptitudes being a tax that NO ONE ELSE pays. With the purposed changes of a level 30 level cap and no other changes, this would shrink the amount of skill points the player has by almost exactly 9% (12/42 versus 12/32) and while this might be addressed somewhat by the possibility of Character Points being rewards, it still doesn't address the fact that aptitudes are still BS point taxes that no one else has to pay and they just further take away from the fun. Just give them skills that 95% of the players take (coughbonusOPcough)

Also, I am looking forward to this so much. There's something slightly painful about floating above a needle-in-a-haystack, completely-habitable, resource-rich world and thinking "yea, survey data on you will be worth a few hundred thousand to the right buyer, and then I'll never come back here again... what a waste." That'll completely change once this is added.
Copy the seed for that sectorgen and store it in a document someplace safe so that you CAN come back to it later!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 12:33:05 PM by Midnight Kitsune »
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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2017, 02:35:00 PM »

Re: Skills.  I really dislike aptitudes, and I really dislike being forced into being a support role.  Currently, in 0.8.x, if I want to play warrior, either as a loner or a champion of my army, my skilled ship is barely better than one piloted by an unskilled character, but if I play buffer or squishy puppet master and let my four or more officers get the combat skills while I ignore them, my character is much stronger.  Meanwhile, I look at my officers' ships with great envy and wish I can pilot them, but cannot because only I am allowed to take the critical buffer skills and not my officers.  (And if I do not and get skills like an officer, my character is much weaker.)

The main thing I am concerned about is skill changes.  There are not enough skill points now, and we will get even less later?!  The aptitude tax is awful, and as Midnight says, no one else gets to pay it.  Thanks to the tax, player character barely has more points than max level officer.
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