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Author Topic: Colony Management  (Read 68242 times)

Igncom1

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #90 on: December 27, 2017, 10:13:43 AM »

Can you build a colony in a REDACTED system?
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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #91 on: December 27, 2017, 09:59:33 PM »

My pc goes out of commission for a week and I miss some of the best news I've read in a while... Late to the party but wow this looks great! Looking through the thread I have nothing to add that hasn't been said already.. I will just say that I am extremely pumped  ;D

:D

Quick question:  If we build a military base, does the colony get a military market (for us to buy ships) or is such hardware (if produced) for Local Resources?

I can't say exactly right now - not sure. I'd expect at least some of this production to be more or less freely available, though. Possibly something like letting you buy it for the "sell" cost, or with some other way of making sure that you don't have to clear it out and sell yourself every so often to get the most out of it.

Can you build a colony in a REDACTED system?

I'd imagine so, though you'd probably have to deal with the neighbors, or the trade fleets at the very least would have issues and that reflects on the market pretty heavily.
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MattD

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2017, 07:06:34 AM »

Question, is there any notion of having a "capital world" for the player faction, or are all player-owned markets equally "colonies"?

I'm not necessarily advocating that there should be such a notion, as we could legitimately say that the player's fleet is the executive and administrative center of the faction. But it could be interesting for both roleplay and gameplay to have the option of naming a market as the faction's capital.
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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2017, 09:00:27 AM »

Question, is there any notion of having a "capital world" for the player faction, or are all player-owned markets equally "colonies"?

I'm not necessarily advocating that there should be such a notion, as we could legitimately say that the player's fleet is the executive and administrative center of the faction. But it could be interesting for both roleplay and gameplay to have the option of naming a market as the faction's capital.

There's the notion of building a "high command" (an upgrade from "military base") which would be that, but I have no idea what it would actually do and whether it'll actually stick around. So: maybe?
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xenoargh

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #94 on: December 28, 2017, 10:25:23 AM »

This is really looking great, Alex!  I like pretty much everything I see in these changes and I am really looking forward to seeing how the "combat funnel" gets implemented :)

A few (OK, about a page, lol) thoughts, based on my latest playthroughs:
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1.  The level cap and leveling in general are going to need to get looked at, I think.  I'm in agreement with Megas there.  We're already squeezed to the point that players got pushed into some pretty squirrel-case builds, and I think that's significant.  I'd prefer a return of the soft-cap, both for players and Officers (or at least let Officers fill out their skill-bars).

2.  I certainly agreed with everything you said in defense of the improved early-game experience vis-a-vis the "Tutorial" scenario. 

However, I think a couple of things might be improved. 

A.  The early-game power-curve needs to be faster, so that players don't hit a wall quite so fast. 

In the private build I play, I have the experience at roughly 8X normal right now, which demonstrates this in a way that I think you might want to playtest (essentially, unless you're an expert player, you go from, "I'm barely powerful enough to take down weak Pirates" to  "I cannot possibly take down the generated Bounty encounters unless I am not only expert but am thoroughly cheesing in every way". 

Then, when you're past that plateau, it becomes Easy Street; there's a definite tipping-point right now where I feel like players get a huge hand up about when they can start affording Capitals and have collected enough of the least-balanced weapons, which, depending on how badly you abuse the Factions (especially the Perseans and Tritach) leads to some seriously-amusing power imbalances (a really optimized fleet tears through Pirate bounties very very efficiently because they don't improve other than numbers and remain squishy, while the Deserter fleets remain relevant until later in the curve, among other issues).

In Vanilla, this is considerably easier to reach (the balance changes I've made generally make this a lot harder on the player, because there aren't a lot of things that can be easily abused, now that I've adjusted Variants to take advantage of the changed things). 

I don't think any of what I'm saying here applies to Average Joe Player, mind you.  Based on what I've seen on streams lately, there aren't that many people doing this kind of thing well; sometimes I wish I had enough spare time to make videos on How To Break Things.  But be aware that if the game's played right, the power-curve is still not quite tuned right in late-game. 

I'd recommend, at the least, having Pirates get a big upgrade somewhere around Level 30 that gives them new Variants that aren't quite so squishy, or a plethora of highly-leveled Officers, or both, so that it's not quite so easy to amass giant fortunes through Bounties once we're past the middle game. 

I'd also recommend that any serious attempt to take over the Sector result in big enough fights that the player won't want to try it until end-game.

To keep the mid-game plateau much more reasonable, I'd suggest a pretty modest reform:  increase the System Bounties by enough that a player can actually make a living and make progress by taking them down.  They simply don't pay enough right now to be worth doing, and whether or not it's "obvious" to long-time players like me that you're not supposed to do that, I strongly suspect that's what most players will do anyhow (and they'll get frustrated when they cannot make progress into midgame).  Perhaps this should use a scalar curve so that the payouts get smaller as the player's power grows, but it probably doesn't have to; when we reach the point where we want to go to the next level, we're talking about enough difference in payout ($250K bounty-head vs., say, a $50K System Bounty for a Pirate "armada") that players will gravitate that way anyhow (at least, that was the effect over here; there's a point where earning $30K is nice if I want to buy Supplies / Fuel, but is almost irrelevant to making progress towards end-game).

B.  Late-game, the problem is largely that the player has resources, and nothing to spend it on.  I know we're about to see big changes to that, and I'm glad, but I think I should maybe make it clear where the issue is.  It's not just "my income vastly outpaces my expenses"; it's also, far too often in Vanilla, "my income has absolutely nothing worth being spent on"; when we pass through the midgame, it's suddenly a game of waiting, fruitlessly trying every Market in the entire Core to buy <insert minor power tool>, etc., which is a real drag now and will be worse if we need a million-plus credits in monthly income to deal with endgame economic expansion, etc., etc. 

My last run of pure-Vanilla, I had somewhere on the order of a million Credits by the time I hit Level 30 and there was literally nothing worth buying with it, because too many of the things I actually wanted were behind various walls or were simply not available at all (I mean, really... I have a million credits, can I not simply bribe some Tritachyon corporate officer to let a few things fall off a truck?). 

I'm not really a fan of the current system, where we shop endlessly in RNG hoping that something we actually want will drop.  It lacks that nice feel Blizzard achieved with Diablo II, where you might have those problems with the shops, but you had the Gems to keep pushing you forward, etc.

One of the few things I actually liked about SPAZ 2 was their "ordering" system, whereby players could buy whatever they needed, including customized gear that put them into a new place on the power-curve.  I would like you to perhaps consider having some "+1, +2" etc. mechanics and Uniques that can be gotten by players by doing <insert very difficult thing>.  Maybe you could consider making these kinds of things one of the ways AI Cores can be spent?

While I fully expect that Crew pay-as-a-drain will help this impression a lot, I suspect it'll be not nearly enough, and we'll have the same problems Mount and Blade did: the player has resources that cannot get used, efficiently or not.  The problem there was that, due to relative power imbalances with troops and putting the best troops behind leveling pay-walls, it became an issue of the level-grinding your troops over and over again to have end-game power worth mentioning.

Here the issue is that with the strict caps on Officers and fleet scales, we can have ideal fleets pretty early and then there's no ceiling to break through.

One idea that I'd like to propose is that non-combat (i.e., stat-only-unless-Iron-Mode) ships aren't subject to the fleet cap at all, and that the cap of 30 be made soft, rather than hard. 

The no-fleet-cap-for-civvies idea has a lot of appeal to me, because it gives the player a lot more room to grow and also encourages the player to try doing improbable things with the civvie stuff that might as well not really exist right now.  For example, it's amusing to think about players throwing out a fleet of Prometheus tankers with hangers as a desperation move, after their main fleet's lost its CR in a big fight and the enemy has just a few weaker ships to hold the field left.

One good way to limit soft-cap fleet expansion might be to dial back fleet speeds at best-Burn, rather than simply gearing up costs; if you want a fleet of 60 giant capital ships, maybe you can do that, but you're limited to Burn 14 at best speeds, for example, just like the old model for Burn.  This is more-or-less how Mount and Blade handled this issue and it largely worked out.  We're already fighting against AI fleets larger than us and there's no reason that can't be pushed out further to keep this from feeling ridiculous, in terms of player power.  I'd expect, if trying to invade Jangala, for example, to meet a fleet of 200 ships, so I'm OK with players having to juggle 60 they've maxed out and fighting out a battle that takes an hour (over here, I see scenarios like that play out, and so long as performance doesn't tank due to the stuff we've talked about before, it's quite epic and feels utterly satisfying, win or lose).

One thing I do not like about the current optimal strategies for play is how Missile reloading as a CR trade has become such a popular late-game tactic.  I feel like that has pushed players into very un-natural and silly builds for fleets.  I don't do it, personally (I feel pretty strongly it's still sub-optimal play and Megas is largely right about where balance shifted) but whenever I see that in a stream, I cringe; it feels like an exploit and it illustrates pretty perfectly why limited ammo has been such a problem for sane discussion of balance in the game.

3.  The one big worry I have, given the outlines of the current system as you're developing it, is that AI Cores sound like a show-stopper resource.  Please, tell me that, if we're willing to spend outrageous amounts of money, we can get more, even if all of the Domain stuff is scraps and every single Remnant has been hunted down?  I really dislike the idea that we'll be purposefully farming Remnants in late game just to get Cores because it's the only way; I can <shudders> imagine having to build a Core Farming operation where I've built powerful defensive bases in all the nearby Systems just to keep the Factions away.

Honestly, where the Remnants are concerned, I'd really rather that they go exponential sometimes if nobody keeps them in check and can't be totally eradicated; it'd be much less frustrating if they aren't a resource I carefully farm, but are an occasional major threat that (however briefly) unites the Sector and presents major problems to a player whose mini-empire is in their path.  I like the idea that they're the "barbarian horde" at the high end; right now they largely feel like an easy resource target that I have to husband carefully if I want to keep getting Cores.  I realize that, for a lot of players, they're considered a Boss Fight, but I really haven't had much trouble beating even fully-operational Stations and I'd honestly like to see them get scarier and much less limited (I have had multiple runs where I can't even find a single Station, too; it'd be really nice if there were reasonable ways to get hints about where they are, like the Domain hints).
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2017, 10:52:53 AM »

On the topic of cores being used for everything, having some sort of player-triggered endgame that provides lots of access to cores would help with both the endgame being kind of stale once you've got a bigger fleet than the factions do and the core-drought of the endgame. Maybe we reopen the gates and oh-no remnants pour out? Something that would challenge a player who's reached his outpost cap, has a big fleet and is generally on top of the sector - while still paying out with some kind of reward that the player can actually use.
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FooF

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2017, 11:35:39 AM »

Been out of town but wanted to chime in and say this was an enjoyable read. I've only skimmed the comments here so hopefully I'm not retreading on old ground.

So colonies/outposts are adding a more strategic layer to Starsector and some of the administrator/AI core usages seem oddly familiar, but better implemented!

With the addition of all this monthly income/expenses, how is the overall economy (from the player's standpoint) being affected? Are bounties relatively unchanged? I know that if I want to level up and score the most credits, named bounties are the quickest way for me. I can easily get hundreds of thousands of credits and 20 levels in rapid fashion. Is this going to translate into "easy" colony building for me since I have the start-up capital early or are there other factors, beyond sheer credits, that will slow down my empire building? Once the colonies are up and running, will I need to supplement my income with bounties, etc. to continue making money or will good colony management be "enough" to fuel further expansion?

TL;DR: Will colonies provide enough income (not just credits but ships, weapons, etc.) to begin focusing on other stuff down the road? At what point, if ever, will a player be self-sufficient?

The artwork is really amazing, too and I've loved the attention to detail thus far.

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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2017, 05:46:36 PM »

This is really looking great, Alex!  I like pretty much everything I see in these changes and I am really looking forward to seeing how the "combat funnel" gets implemented :)

Thank you!

B.  Late-game, the problem is largely that the player has resources, and nothing to spend it on.  I know we're about to see big changes to that, and I'm glad, but I think I should maybe make it clear where the issue is.  It's not just "my income vastly outpaces my expenses"; it's also, far too often in Vanilla, "my income has absolutely nothing worth being spent on"; ...

Right. See: immigration incentives; the idea is to have other things as well that let you spend a virtually unlimited amount of credits for somewhat diminishing returns.

I'm not against the idea of an "ordering" system of some sort, but that has to be approached carefully or every playthrough would become potentially very similar. Making do with what's available can be a source of variety.

I'm not really a fan of the current system, where we shop endlessly in RNG hoping that something we actually want will drop.  It lacks that nice feel Blizzard achieved with Diablo II, where you might have those problems with the shops, but you had the Gems to keep pushing you forward, etc.

... and it can also be a source of that. I feel like that's also at least in part due to not having much to do in the endgame beyond perfecting your fleet, though. If you've got five fires to put out, you're going to be less inclined to do this sort of thing.

In any case, though, the current situation is less a "system" and more a "long-term placeholder". I'm sure it'll change to some extent once blueprints are in the picture; specifics TBD.


3.  The one big worry I have, given the outlines of the current system as you're developing it, is that AI Cores sound like a show-stopper resource.  Please, tell me that, if we're willing to spend outrageous amounts of money, we can get more, even if all of the Domain stuff is scraps and every single Remnant has been hunted down?  I really dislike the idea that we'll be purposefully farming Remnants in late game just to get Cores because it's the only way; I can <shudders> imagine having to build a Core Farming operation where I've built powerful defensive bases in all the nearby Systems just to keep the Factions away.

Not sure exactly how it'll play out, but "farming" Remnants certainly isn't great and I have some REDACTED thoughts on the matter :)


With the addition of all this monthly income/expenses, how is the overall economy (from the player's standpoint) being affected? Are bounties relatively unchanged? I know that if I want to level up and score the most credits, named bounties are the quickest way for me. I can easily get hundreds of thousands of credits and 20 levels in rapid fashion. Is this going to translate into "easy" colony building for me since I have the start-up capital early or are there other factors, beyond sheer credits, that will slow down my empire building? Once the colonies are up and running, will I need to supplement my income with bounties, etc. to continue making money or will good colony management be "enough" to fuel further expansion?

TL;DR: Will colonies provide enough income (not just credits but ships, weapons, etc.) to begin focusing on other stuff down the road? At what point, if ever, will a player be self-sufficient?

Can't say with certainty just now - haven't done a balancing pass, and not even that close to it. Ideally, I'd expect the colony *building* to be fairly eay regardless, and the colony *defending* to present a challenge. As far as income, the general idea is that you get some pretty easily, but getting (and keeping) a stronger income is where things get progressively more difficult.

Not sure what you mean by "self-sufficient" - it it's in economic terms, as far as "all of the colony needs are met by your colonies", then that ought to be possible, depending on what kinds of planets you cultivate and whether you aim for that.
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FooF

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2017, 06:38:04 PM »

Self-sufficient meaning, "My colonies are creating all the supplies, ships, weapons, etc. without being beholden to another faction." I guess it's my hope that there will come a point where "getting more stuff" takes a backseat to some end-game shenanigans and it would be possible to strike out without the backing of the other major factions, if your colony management was up to snuff.

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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #99 on: December 28, 2017, 06:49:02 PM »

Ah - in that case, yeah, that ought to be possible.
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xenoargh

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #100 on: December 28, 2017, 06:53:17 PM »

Quote
If you've got five fires to put out, you're going to be less inclined to do this sort of thing.
Hmm.  The Mount and Blade experience says otherwise; people eventually figured out how to break the economy, spent literally weeks playing out years of time building up millions of denars to spend, and then spent aons building up the huge forces of optimized Huscarls needed to win.  

Don't underestimate the sheer monotony of endgame when the minmaxers play it and monotony's the only way forward that works.  

Me, I can see myself sharpening the fleet I'm going to use to win until it's pretty much a perfect weapon before I even bother with Outposts, unless there's some really good reason not to, but we're in total agreement here; I'd rather feel like I don't have that kind of time.  

So... thoughts on that:  the Pirates and REDACTED might drive players forward, warfare between the Factions might, perhaps there are other things that could push the timetable and force players into a sharper tension between time and tools.  

This seems like it might be the best way to frame the final experience, rather than complicated RPG trappings and quest-lines (as much as I really do like what was done with the Tutorial scenario, because it was such a good intro to the complexity of the game).  

One of the few failings of Escape Velocity was that the quest-line was static and there weren't any dynamic forces at work, pushing the players to get on with things.  If you minmaxed and cheesed, you could blow through all of the quests easily simply through being over-leveled (in that game, over-capitalized).  

That's one of the things that both Master of Orion and Star Control got largely right; if you sat around collecting too long, the game moved on and crushed you.  This whole 4X element, which we're all looking forward to as a way to finally be a part of the Sector's dynamics in a meaningful way, also offers the opportunity to put in some sort of element that makes the dynamics destabilize.  

I know you're busy working on the framework issues at the moment, but that's sort of the grand scenario I think might work best in the end; nothing's forced (and perhaps, on the easiest settings, it never happens and you just play in a sandbox) but one way to give Hard a meaning is that you'll have to build an empire to handle what's coming; your heroic fleet will not be enough.  It would provide a way to avoid the boredom trap Mount and Blade fell into, by writing their Factions to remain largely static (which I suspect you'll have to do, in the end, so that players don't get hosed by weird RNG).
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mehgamer

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #101 on: December 28, 2017, 07:21:05 PM »

In Vanilla, this is considerably easier to reach (the balance changes I've made generally make this a lot harder on the player, because there aren't a lot of things that can be easily abused, now that I've adjusted Variants to take advantage of the changed things). 

I don't think any of what I'm saying here applies to Average Joe Player, mind you.  Based on what I've seen on streams lately, there aren't that many people doing this kind of thing well; sometimes I wish I had enough spare time to make videos on How To Break Things.  But be aware that if the game's played right, the power-curve is still not quite tuned right in late-game. 
I mean... have you seen my videos on your modpack?  Your rebalances are INCREDIBLY abusable and turn the game into a "nothing matters" arcadey explosion generator.

I don't really wanna be that guy - broken record, and all that - but seriously, using the rebalance mechanics you designed I literally beat Forlorn Hope without dropping shield or activating the paragon's ship system a single time, and that was using exactly 4 weapon slots out of the entire ship's arsenal.

I know that this is sort of off topic for the thread in question, but I feel it needs to be said when you make posts of that length trying to argue redesigning major elements of the game.
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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #102 on: December 28, 2017, 07:33:30 PM »

Hmm.  The Mount and Blade experience says otherwise; people eventually figured out how to break the economy, spent literally weeks playing out years of time building up millions of denars to spend, and then spent aons building up the huge forces of optimized Huscarls needed to win.

What I mean by "fires to put out" is situations where sitting around doing that lets them, to take the metaphor further, burn stuff down :) So, yeah, time pressure is the main component of that - i.e. if a pirate raid is coming to colony X, you don't have the time to go look for some light needlers, etc.


I mean... have you seen my videos on your modpack?  Your rebalances are INCREDIBLY abusable and turn the game into a "nothing matters" arcadey explosion generator.

I don't really wanna be that guy - broken record, and all that - but seriously, using the rebalance mechanics you designed I literally beat Forlorn Hope without dropping shield or activating the paragon's ship system a single time, and that was using exactly 4 weapon slots out of the entire ship's arsenal.

I know that this is sort of off topic for the thread in question, but I feel it needs to be said when you make posts of that length trying to argue redesigning major elements of the game.

Yeah, this is definitely off-topic and feels too much like an attack on the person rather than on what they're saying. Let's please not go down that road.
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Ishman

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2017, 10:35:52 AM »

I'd actually enjoy seeing some miniature text adventure games/decision trees related to colonizing extreme hazard areas.

Things along the lines of a floating armored orbital slab in which you have a small standing population supervising and remotely controlling a team of robots.

Maybe the world is in a close orbit a particularly violent star/gas giant/star cluster which has deposited an enormous and deep transuranic dust layer (which obviously also breaks down into the good stuff you mine nickel-iron asteroids for such as the platinum group metals, niobium, tantalum, rhenium - all things going into first through third generation superalloys). Exotic places with exotic resources, ranging the gamut from high energy atmospheres/environments that are suitable for producing lots of research components to sell to market (particle research or fancy batteries), deathworlds with fascinating biological products (medicines, drugs, food), etc.

This is where I'd enjoy roleplaying my faction's proclivities - instead of robots, do you send down waves of augmented 'humans' who are ever more adapted? (Revelation Space ultron style like Diamond Dogs), an army of corpses controlled by an AI (Ancillary Justice(Don't betray the AI, you won't like it when an unfeeling utterly rational entity gets stuck in a fleshly body and must take matters into its own hands)), or perhaps that's all too expensive for you and the number of lives lost in the mines is just an item on the expense report as you fuel the war machine keeping your unwashed masses safe from the terrors out there.

I love exploring the different solar systems and seeing all the neat stuff, looking forward to the next update, and thanks for the great work!

P.S. would like to be able to play a hard mode faction that ditches planetary bodies as anything but resource sources and colonizes space like in the maple syrup wars (Troy Rising by John Ringo)
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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2017, 02:25:06 PM »

What I mean by "fires to put out" is situations where sitting around doing that lets them, to take the metaphor further, burn stuff down :) So, yeah, time pressure is the main component of that - i.e. if a pirate raid is coming to colony X, you don't have the time to go look for some light needlers, etc.
Unless the pirates themselves have light needlers on their ships.

Seriously, I get the point you made.

Self-sufficiency, as defined by FooF, would be one of my late-game goals.  Before I start destroying enemy factions, I cannot have them stop my war machine by pulling the plug.
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