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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Economy & Outposts  (Read 59154 times)

Sendrien

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2017, 11:17:25 AM »

I agree with Schwartz.

We definitely need the characters in each station and our standing with them to count for something. Otherwise, it's all too impersonal and doesn't feel immersive.

--

Regarding factions, are there any plans to have a dynamic universe (factions taking over other factions' outposts/colonies, factions establishing new colonies, etc)?
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icepick37

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2017, 02:52:06 PM »

You have to create whole games inside of games for this. Whew. Looks solid so far. Can't wait to see how it pans out
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Megas

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2017, 02:59:21 PM »

Re: Persistent patrol commanders.
I wonder if I can kill them off when I (or someone else) utterly destroy their fleet (or do they eject and respawn in a new patrol fleet).  Sometimes, I enter an enemy system, with transponder off, and meet with enemy patrols who demand a scan (and lose reputation with), which does not matter because there will be a fight.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2017, 05:32:15 AM »

Alex, this could end up like the Rimworld attractive lesbians controversy if you're not careful. (An indy game that made lazy abstractions of how relationships work, and thereby incentivized players to kill lesbians in the game; google it if you wish).

Starsector won't generate any outrage since its economics not sex, but the same potential to encourage ridiculous gameplay and elevate absurd worldviews will be there.

Are you choosing mechanics like the range, log-scale, and ability to meet demand on multiple markets based on actual study of how economics works in the past or present? How trade and trade routes between city states, nations etc, actually work?

Or are you trying to find something that is computationally cheap and simple to understand? If only the latter, there may be unintended side effects that incentivize strange and repugnant behavior, that will become the narrative of the game.

For example the way a market can choose only one supplier for a commodity. You're basically enthroning some weird kind of space mercantilism as the game's true philosophy. Don't any factions believe in free trade? As people have already pointed out, the only point to form a colony is to be the best and wipe out any others nearby, since markets can take only one supplier etc... It's conflict that doesn't really need to exist. I'm not an economist but I don't think it quite scans.

Severe abstractions work for severely abstracted environments like board games, but Starsector is more like a simulation, so you will get weird player behaviors out of this if you don't take care.

And AI factions do kinda have to make/capture their own outposts/colonies, or it will deny the mechanic the dynamic aspect it needs to be exciting. Otherwise you're just watching yourself spread across the map unopposed.
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Gothars

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2017, 06:14:25 AM »

incentivize strange and repugnant behavior

Starsector is more like a simulation

Where is contradiction, comrade? Reality incentivizes "strange and repugnant behavior" all the time, game too, is good simulation.


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nomadic_leader

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2017, 07:25:42 AM »


Where is contradiction, comrade? Reality incentivizes "strange and repugnant behavior" all the time, game too, is good simulation.

I mean, dear comrade, beyond the baseline of the strange and repugnant behavior we see in real life. As in that Rimworld game, having to kill attractive lesbians is really dumb from a gameplay/simulation/moral/anything standpoint. In Starsector having to crush every nearby farming world just to sell your own food would be somewhat akin to this.

E.g. if a world with food demand 5 is surrounded by 5 worlds with food supply 1, and it has to pick only one of them, then you have to crush the other 4. It's just silly and tedious, when really they should all be supplying food to it. Pardon the extreme example. I know the mechanics aren't set in stone and my reading of them might be wrong, I'm just pointing out the possibility for dumb stuff is there if care is not taken.
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Megas

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2017, 08:59:19 AM »

I fail to see how it is worse than killing fake things for XP and loot or otherwise behaving as vandals, pirates, or murder-hobos that many RPGs encourage.

If I can casually slaughter fleets for gain or even on a whim, I would not bat an eye at crushing the competition at trade (and becoming a monopoly) if it makes my munchkin character the best.
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ArkAngel

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2017, 09:32:49 AM »

Gotta say, I really like outposts/colonies and the whole ideas regarding them. I do have to agree with some others, that Market class sounds better then market size, due to the way market sizes function, to me anyway.

I'm also think nomad has a point. It seems kinda weird that planets would only go for a single primary importer for x good rather then taking excess available for import from other colonies, Unless I'm misunderstanding how the system works.
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mendonca

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2017, 10:25:38 AM »

Hmm ... I'd much rather have an abstraction that 'works' rather than something unnecessarily complicated which means I can't add my favourite faction mod to the game because those 5 added markets break the game on my old laptop.

Also without something like this level of abstraction, competition is just difficult to understand and / or balance when playing, surely? Or worse, becomes effectively meaningless?

The 'tipping point' mechanism seems like a good gameplay thing, to me, to drive sources of supply and demand - and if it works, and is fun, I personally don't really care how accurately it reflects the granularity of a 'real', diverse economy.
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Alex

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2017, 10:32:44 AM »

Alex, this could end up like the Rimworld attractive lesbians controversy if you're not careful. (An indy game that made lazy abstractions of how relationships work, and thereby incentivized players to kill lesbians in the game; google it if you wish).

Oh, hah! Just looked that up, yeah, that's definitely some "fun" emergent gameplay there.

Are you choosing mechanics like the range, log-scale, and ability to meet demand on multiple markets based on actual study of how economics works in the past or present? How trade and trade routes between city states, nations etc, actually work?

Or are you trying to find something that is computationally cheap and simple to understand? If only the latter, there may be unintended side effects that incentivize strange and repugnant behavior, that will become the narrative of the game.

Fast, simple to understand, makes enough sense if you want it to, and produces the dynamics I want. I think something more complex that's trying to be a more detailed simulation is more likely to produce unintended side effects. Of course, this may as well, but I'm very much keeping an eye out for this sort of thing - I'm glad you brought it up, and yeah, it's on my mind. I think it's down to what options you have to become the best supplier, and what consequences there are for exercising those options.

And, as you say, it's economics, so the bar for messing things up is... pretty low.


Don't any factions believe in free trade?

I think the 30% tariffs say just about all there is to say on that matter, don't they? :)

And AI factions do kinda have to make/capture their own outposts/colonies, or it will deny the mechanic the dynamic aspect it needs to be exciting. Otherwise you're just watching yourself spread across the map unopposed.

As you say. But factions don't have to make their own outposts for the player to encounter possibly forceful resistance, lots of ways to do that!


It seems kinda weird that planets would only go for a single primary importer for x good rather then taking excess available for import from other colonies, Unless I'm misunderstanding how the system works.

Mechanically, that's right. Conceptually, I'm sure there's some other trade going on too, just not on the level that would affect the "economic units" of commodities being available.


Also without something like this level of abstraction, competition is just difficult to understand and / or balance when playing, surely? Or worse, becomes effectively meaningless?

Yeah, I think the way it is now is on the upper end of "what level of complexity might be acceptable, from the pov of what the player has to work with"... we've got a *lot* of markets, right. So the level of detail in their interaction necessarily has to get zoomed out. If we had say 4 or 5 markets in the game total, then the nuances of just how food or whatever gets shipped around could be interesting and comprehensible. But we've got over 50.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 10:52:36 AM by Alex »
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orost

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2017, 12:17:40 PM »


It seems kinda weird that planets would only go for a single primary importer for x good rather then taking excess available for import from other colonies, Unless I'm misunderstanding how the system works.

Mechanically, that's right. Conceptually, I'm sure there's some other trade going on too, just not on the level that would affect the "economic units" of commodities being available.


Overall I'm optimistic about the new economy but the one supplier rule is one thing that doesn't sit right with me. The small trade might not matter much to the big importer, but it could matter a lot to the small exporters that are being ignored. Say I see Chicomoztoc is having a big food shortage and only getting 5/8 or whatever, so I set up a small outpost to produce 3 food (because I can't afford to make a big one that will be best supplier right now). It's not going to make a dent in their shortage, but they need all they can get, so surely they'll buy it and for a good price - this is a great opportunity for me, right...?

Except it's not going to work at all, and what's worse, the answer why not is because the opportunity has been "abstracted away". That's a really bad answer about why I can't do something that would make perfect sense to do, especially if, "conceptually", the thing I'm trying to do is supposed to be happening in the background.

Obviously whether that will actually be a problem depends on a lot of things I don't know right now. But it's a pretty big red flag.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 12:20:47 PM by orost »
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Alex

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2017, 01:07:46 PM »

(Conceptually, it could be that it's still happening, but you're just not getting any special deal, so the potential profits are eaten up by tariffs etc.)

That said, I totally get what you're saying there. Was actually thinking about having non-exported production give a bit of credits if there's unfilled demand nearby - a small amount compared to being a primary exporter, but something, just for the case you're describing. Not sure whether it'll be necessary (I also don't know right now), but it's an option.
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Gothars

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2017, 01:30:27 PM »

What's up with the little Hound icons being shipped as a commodity btw? Are these actual ship hulls, or blueprints or what? :)

Another question: In the blogpost example with the drugs, you highlight that two are produced locally by having them apart from the imported (2+)1. From my understanding it doesn't make any difference if you produce some locally as long as your main supplier is import, so why is it displayed as important information?  Because of export potential? Seems a bit misleading.

Oh, and I think the organics symbol would be much easier to read if it had two barrels instead of three. As it is now you can only easily count it by focusing on the uppermost barrel.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 03:10:43 PM by Gothars »
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Alex

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2017, 01:57:03 PM »

What's up with the little Hound icons being shipped as a commodity btw? Are these actual ship hulls, or blueprints or what? :)

There's a "ship hulls & weapons" commodity, required by spaceports etc. Some details are still fuzzy, but the idea is that the good stuff only gets shipped in-faction, while cross-faction shipping of hulls is all d-hulls and other junk. There are also in-game trade fleets with mothballed ships.

Another question: In the blogpost example with the drugs, you highlight that two are produced locally by having them apart from the exported (2+)1. From my understanding it doesn't make any difference if you produce some locally as long as your main supplier is import, so why is it displayed as important information?  Because of export potential? Seems a bit misleading.

Correct. I see what you're saying, but it'd also be misleading not to show local production there. This way, the information is there if you know how to read it. The other way, it's not there at all.

Oh, and I think the organics symbol would be much easier to read if it had two barrels instead of three. As it is now you can only easily count it by focusing on the uppermost barrel.

Hmm. With this not being the only use case for the icons, I think it'll be alright - plus you can see the numbers in the widget/tooltips, and as you point out, you can still count them.
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errorgance

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Re: Economy & Outposts
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2017, 04:34:00 PM »

Alex,
I'd love to be able to manage the ships/patrols my outposts use. However I realize that could be a bit too much micro management.

So How about a compromise? let the outpost automatically generate a defense force and patrols, but allow the player to boost the defenses by allowing them to garrison additional ships?

And to be clear, I'm not asking for control of patrols, or asking for Garrisoned ships to be put in patrols, I think patrols are more likely to take losses or be destroyed and I think that would be annoying if you lost a choice ship in what might be a needless patrol, whereas if you lose ships defending an expensive outpost it's more justified.
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