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Author Topic: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management  (Read 8045 times)

harrumph

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Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« on: February 27, 2012, 09:52:23 PM »

So, first, the usual: hi, I'm new to the forums, got some impressions of 0.5a, got suggestions for future builds, yadda yadda. The game, of course, is amazing—it's incredible how enjoyable, robust, and stable it is at this super-early stage. I liked 0.35, but I've had an absolute blast with the new campaign mode, and I can't wait to see it fleshed out more. I understand that lots of features are implemented only in rudimentary fashion or are still very much in flux (as it were), so I want to focus my critical observations on a few mostly-finished things: the role of fighters in combat, the way fleet points work in combat, and the crew management model. All of them are somewhat interrelated, so I'll just ramble my way through the whole thing.

The campaign, where the player can actually determine fleet composition for the first time, exposes a problem with the way battles unfold. I've seen other people on the forums mention this as though it were common knowledge, so I won't go into great detail, but the concise version, in case anybody wants a thesis to disagree with, is that optimal play in the campaign right now means building a fleet around fast frigates and fighters. In your initial deployment, you send elite-crewed Thunders and Tempests to the most distant objectives and Wasps or whatever else to the rest; back up your Thunders and Tempests with a couple wings of Broadswords, Gladii, or Xiphoi at each objective and you can invariably take four (and often all five) objectives within less than a minute. Strangled by lack of FP, the enemy never even brings his biggest ships into play; a typical battle for me against a big Tri-Tachyon fleet ends with a Paragon and an Astral surrendering, both having gone unused.

Part of the problem is that no AI fleet in the campaign ever has enough fighters and frigates to devote all of its 60+ initial FP (in a big battle) to a rush for objectives, and that might change; players might also enjoy, in the more complete campaign, leading a smaller fleet. Still, some of us are probably going to want to see some hot battleship-on-battleship action in the campaign, at least in one playthrough or another. As it stands, fleets built around slow-moving, high-FP-cost vessels are at a severe disadvantage. A complement of fighters and frigates designed to escort cruisers and capital ships cannot contest objectives against a fleet that has devoted all of its FPs to fighters and fighter-killing frigates (which, for what it's worth, aren't always PD frigates—a Tempest with two pulse lasers and turret mods can't protect a cruiser from torpedoes, but it can chew up fighters all day long). Even if a battleship-focused fleet included 60+ FP worth of fighters and frigates, it'd mean that every battle started with small ships jockeying for control—and that every battle ran the risk of ending at that stage, without bigger ships ever seeing significant action.

I like the idea of establishing fighter superiority and getting benefits from controlling the battlespace, but I think that tying the ability to deploy more ships exclusively to objectives is a problem. Sensor arrays and nav buoys are worthwhile in their own right—if they didn't grant FP (and if comm relays were replaced or reworked), a strong force of fighters and fast frigates would make large warships more effective, rather than marginalizing them. Right now, I can deploy six fighter wings (say, 40 FP worth of Broadswords and Xiphoi) when my opponent has two battleships (40 FP worth of Onslaughts) in reserve and simply prevent the latter from entering the field; with a reworked system, I might choose to field three wings and one battleship against his two, counting on my fighter advantage and subsequent control of the objectives to give my one battleship the range and mobility (and fighter support) to outfight his two. There are many alternative ways FP could be generated: a steady drip (or periodic chunks) over the course of the battle, for instance, or from objectives that only cruiser-class and bigger ships were capable of capturing (which would add value to faster, weaker cruisers like the Falcon and Apogee). They could even remain tied to the present objectives, but require that the objective be held for X amount of time rather than granting points instantly.

If any big change is made to the way FP are accumulated in battle, of course, it'll probably mean rebalancing a few numbers. Given their versatility and ability to control the battlespace, I think fighters and frigates are generally undervalued right now—6 FP for a Tempest in particular is a total bargain (it's even got some hangar space)—but if they're pushed into more of a supporting role rather than being primary combatants in big fleet actions, maybe the numbers will be more appropriate. I do think you might want to take another look, however, whatever else you do, at the FP costs of carriers. Hybrid carriers (the Venture and Odyssey) seem to me to be undervalued—either that, or pure carriers are overpriced. With the Odyssey, for instance, you get literally everything the Condor offers—a flight deck, LRMs (which the Condor maybe isn't even supposed to have?), and decent mobility—plus massive additional firepower and vastly superior survivability, which, since it allows the Odyssey to operate at or near the front lines, offers the hard-to-quantify value of getting fighters and bombers repaired, rearmed, and back into the action much faster. At the same time, the Odyssey has very similar stats to the Aurora (better armor, tougher hull, smaller but more efficient shield) with vastly superior weapons and such a generous OP allotment that you can mod it to almost eliminate the Aurora's one big advantage (speed) without sacrificing anything. So it gives you everything the Condor gives you, plus everything the Aurora gives you, plus, say, a tachyon lance to starboard and a vicious laser broadside to port, and it costs a whopping one 1 FP more than the Aurora? God, I love the Odyssey. What was I talking about? Maybe the Condor, Gemini, and Astral should be cheaper, I guess, because I definitely don't want the Odyssey to change in any way.

Anyhow, the Odyssey is a decent way to introduce my last point. Let's say I have 55 elite crew and 145 veterans (and several hundred regulars). I can put them all into my Odyssey, bumping its level from regular up to veteran, or I can put them into frigates—four elite Tempests and ten veteran Wolves, for example. Even setting aside the particular advantage that I gain from conferring a 10% speed boost on those Tempests (as discussed above regarding objectives etc.), this is wildly unbalanced. I've got 24 FP worth of elite frigates and 50 FP worth of veteran frigates, using the same crew that'd give me 18 FP worth of veteran battlecruiser. Kill just one of those guys, and the Odyssey is back down to regular level. I get that high-tech ships require fewer crew, and that that's part of their appeal. That bigger ships are prohibitively difficult to level up, however, and that the player is strongly disincentivized from doing so, means that the system is flawed, and I think that a little more analysis shows it to be broken entirely.

If you think about the actual processes that the crew system is modelling, I think you can see the heart of the problem. It's twofold, really: first, as somebody mentioned in Alex's blog post about crew management, interchangeability of crew between a fighter wing and a battlecruiser doesn't really make sense. If you're an elite fire control officer on an Odyssey (or, to pick a sillier example, an outstanding cook, or maybe a really good doctor), it doesn't stand to reason that your skills will transfer into a Thunder. Second, the way XP is distributed in Starfarer right now doesn't make any real-world sense. You win a battle, you get a few hundred or a few thousand XP, and all of it goes to one, or five, or fifteen of your hundreds or thousands of crewmembers. In "reality," if a Thunder wing and an Odyssey went through a battle together, all three Broadsword pilots and all four hundred Odyssey crewmembers would learn from the experience. Each man or woman, individually, would gain experience and, individually, grow closer to being a veteran. In the game, instead, hundreds of people learn nothing at all, but one fire control officer, two cooks, and the ship's surgeon suddenly become vastly more skilled. Also, they know how to pilot fighters. This is lucky, because my average three-man Thunder wing loses four pilots per battle. Thus, interchangeability combines with overspecific experience distribution to create the ridiculous situation in which my fighter pilots, despite getting slaughtered day in and day out, remain the crème de la crème, while my battlecruiser crews, despite seeing a fair amount of action and never suffering any casualties, remain stubbornly mediocre.

I know Alex has put a lot of thought into the crew system (more than I have, I'm sure), but I just can't find a way to like it. Beyond the major problem detailed above, there's lots of smaller stuff that bugs me—not being able to mix veteran and regular crew in each ship is annoying, having to transfer command in every battle if you don't have any veterans to crew your intended flagship (but do have enough for a frigate or several) is annoying, buying and selling human beings is weird and kind of, uh, slavery-ish. I don't have any sure-fire solutions to replace the current system, but I do have a few suggestions. To a traditional system that models experience on a ship-by-ship basis, you could add experience loss—if a ship suffers casualties, the dead are replaced by inexperienced crewmembers (which prevents you from getting into a situation in which every ship in your fleet is elite and experience is rendered relatively meaningless)—and allow surviving crew from scrapped (or sold) ships to be transferred to ships of like types, boosting the effective level of the receiving ship. You could also, perhaps in addition to a per-ship XP system, collapse officers and crew into a single "personnel" category—in addition to captains and wing commanders (for ships and fighters, respectively), the player could assign special crew members to ships. They would provide narrower bonuses than commanding officers, but they'd add an element of human interest to the crew and offer things that hull mods don't. Maybe a medic on one of your ships distinguishes himself in action, and henceforth whichever ship he's assigned to takes 20% fewer casualties when hull damage occurs, or maybe you hire a quartermaster who can squeeze a few extra OP out of whichever ship you put her in. Obviously then you have to figure out how to keep the player from acquiring dozens of special personnel and filling every ship with them, but I think something of the sort is already in the works for officers.

One last thing: assuming crew experience stays in the game in some form, I think the roles of the Wasp and the Talon should be switched. The Wasp is a strong combatant, consistently able to defeat bombers, most (non-Xyphos) fighters, and some frigates. The only thing I've ever seen a Talon wing beat one-on-one was a Dagger wing—even Piranhas send them packing. As it stands, there's no sense investing experienced crew in the Talon; you're likely to lose them all. I'd like to see the top-tier interceptor be human-crewed and worth caring about, and the cheap throwaway wing best used for capping objectives be unmanned drones (although I guess that might not fit perfectly with the lore and the tech hierarchy).

Anyhow, I've been at this way too long and have probably written way too much. Hope there's something in there that's good food for thought for someone!
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Muffalopadus

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 10:54:51 PM »

I have to say, your name and your post go rather well together.

You thought about this a lot!  I am also annoyed at the experience system, but I'm not sure if its the final version. I am a fan of the experience system in Total War, and your suggestion reminds me of it.  In the game, it does seem to be suggested that there will be officers, but it would be neat to see regular crewmembers get promoted on the merit of their simulated valor in combat.

The idea of using a dedicated fast fleet to deny the enemy any FP does seem a little cheesy to me.  I'm not good enough to have realized that tactic on my own, but that does not seem like a glorious way to do battle!!

I'm interested in what other people think.  I largely agree with you though.
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Alex

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2012, 09:10:30 AM »

Just wanted to say thank you for your feedback. I think you bring up some very good points.

How crew assignment works right now (which, as you mentioned, makes it almost pointless to assign high-level crew anywhere but fighters and frigates) bothers me too - so, you can expect to see that change at some point.

As far as objectives, I'm actually considering removing the mechanic where one side can't deploy reinforcements if the other side controls all objectives - it seems to lead to gamey strategies. Also, one thing that will address this - to a degree - is fleet points and hangar capacity, none of which are enforced now.

About fleet point values in general - they need to be re-balanced. Seeing how things play out in this version will be a great help to that process :)
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Nori

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 10:04:20 AM »

So first off, I actually read your whole post! It is long but worth reading as you have a lot of great point. Particularly about fleet point cost and the objectives, but also crew too. I love the idea of crew but not how they work right now. I don't feel like I get much value out of veteran or elite crews on larger ships, so I always put ships from smallest to biggest...
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harrumph

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 11:53:48 AM »

Also, one thing that will address this - to a degree - is fleet points and hangar capacity, none of which are enforced now.
I've actually been holding myself to both limits, both because I wanted to see what kind of fleets I could put together under the 200 FP limit and because, well, I guess I'm a little OCD? That red bar just makes me feel guilty or something.

Just wanted to say thank you for your feedback.
Thanks for reading it! I've been really impressed, reading the blog and poking around the forums, at how responsive you guys have been (you in particular) to the community, and how willing to engage in dialogue. It's a great feeling to know that all of us can have a hand, however small, in guiding the development of such an awesome game.
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Iscariot

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 12:16:36 PM »

Having played through more of the campaign, I have to agree with here. Map control is far, far too important. That, or there aren't enough initial deployment points, and buoys and arrays are worth too much.

I bagged myself three untouched Onslaughts, a Dominator, four enforcers, two Broadsword wings, and a Condor in ONE battle by shutting out the enemy fleet with Wasps, Tempests, and a variety of Tachyon Lance batteries. All of the above simply surrendered. To be blunt, the Tri-Tachyon weapon and speed advantage is kind of outrageous.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Nori

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2012, 12:29:18 PM »

~snip
To be blunt, the Tri-Tachyon weapon and speed advantage is kind of outrageous.

Oh so true. When I was first reading about the differences between the high tech and low tech, it sounded like each would fit a purpose. High tech would be very fast and flexible with poor armor decent hull and great shields. Low tech was supposed to be slow, but hard hitting, and hard to take down. With the way the game is setup though speed is too important, as is weapon range, both of which are advantages of high tech. Personally I think all weapons should be able to shoot further. Short range isn't a issue on smaller ships, but try flying a capital or cruiser ship with a battery of 600 range weapons. The enemy ships are always moving just out of range and with the sluggish way large ships move, by the time I get close enough to use my guns, I can't stop my momentum before I run into or nearly run into the other ship...
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Iscariot

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2012, 12:37:06 PM »

Cannons need more range, definitely.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

harrumph

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 12:41:44 PM »

Check out the patch notes for the dev build—"Assault Chaingun, Heavy Mauler, Hellbore Cannon, Hephaestus Assault Gun, Mjolnir Cannon - increased range."
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Nori

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 12:46:47 PM »

Where are these notes?

Personally I think capital ships should have a range boost on all their weapons. From my observations, point defense, on large ships, is lucky to get one shot off before a fighter is pointblank, or the missile hits, the reason seems to be that the ships being larger have very wide shield envelops, and are also just bigger in general. Seeing as large ships are slow and not very maneuverable I think it would make sense to give capital ships a 25% range boost.
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intothewildblueyonder

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 12:53:10 PM »

Some food for thought
      Maybe fighters could be balanced by requiring they be piloted by crew of a certain xp level or specialized pilots (which there are less of to be had) and the actual fighters would be bought individually. In addition the destruction of fighters and their pilots would be counted during the battle. This way you can run out of them and you will have to think about were they will be sent (don't want to lose xp and cash).

As far as FP
         they are could be gotten rid of entirely and have a some other system of deployment. However this will need work to implement well. For example there could be a system based on ship speed that determines when your fleet will arrive onto the map. This would differ from the current system in that all you ships will eventually be deployed so long as you hold onto one objective (maybe have one right near the deployment area). This would allow large slow fleets, like the Hegemony, to fully deploy but allows a quicker fleet to gain the initial advantage.

       Perhaps there should also be a more complex surrender system one that allows ships to surrender mid-battle (should they be allowed rescue or ransom?) and one that also allows you to surreder to a fleet and keep, some or all, of your ships and require you to do some such thing as pay a fine, sit jail time (will matter if there are time-limited missions in the campaign), or perform some task.
       A mid-battle surrender by an already deployed ship seems realistic when you have situations were you have clearly surrounded and can clearly destroyed an enemy ship

     these will also give character to the different ships and to the different factions.




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intothewildblueyonder

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 12:58:40 PM »

Where are these notes?

here http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=1322.0

Personally I think capital ships should have a range boost on all their weapons. From my observations, point defense, on large ships, is lucky to get one shot off before a fighter is pointblank, or the missile hits, the reason seems to be that the ships being larger have very wide shield envelops, and are also just bigger in general. Seeing as large ships are slow and not very maneuverable I think it would make sense to give capital ships a 25% range boost.

this would alleviate the oddity that some large weapons have a range barely longer than the ship they're on.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 01:28:18 PM by intothewildblueyonder »
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Nori

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Re: Fighters, Fleet Points, and Crew Management
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 01:10:39 PM »

this would alleviate the oddity that some large weapons have a range barely longer than the ship there on.

My point exactly... It is weird when my weapon range is so short that I am literally ramming a guy before I can shoot. I think the bigger the ship the longer the range should be just to compensate for the size of the ship, maybe 15% for cruisers and 25% for capital ships? A lot of weapons aren't worth equipping if you have to be so close the the other ship to use, as it limits the ship's utility in a battle. And there is the issue I mentioned about the momentum of large ships carrying them right into another ship just to get into range.

Fighters and bombers have huge advantages here since they can fire their ordnance and be away long before the point defense can even hit them.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 01:22:24 PM by Nori »
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