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Author Topic: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 5.1a  (Read 31649 times)

MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2017, 03:32:21 AM »

Quote
Templar have a contour shield *that just works with everything*
Yeah.  It looks like it's basically a similar idea to the Contour Shield from Vacuum, where it took damage and fixed it that game-frame, whereas the Form Shield doesn't take damage at all; it's kind of the point.

That's a computationally expensive approach to that problem.  It's not very practical for huge battles, which is why there was only ever one ship that had it in Vacuum.



I finally realized that what all your griping is about.  It's the game-wrecking shield-piercing mechanic I wrote, long, long ago, for EXI... because it's reliant on applyDamage() as it was written back then (not that that is the only way to do what it does, it was merely convenient).

Too bad you're reliant on other people's game-wreaking, special-sauce code that violates fundamental rules of SS and are too dumb to fix that yourself...

Oh, wait... I'm the bad guy here.  Not the total hypocrite who's been using my work for years and doesn't even release the source.


But it works, and doesn't break other mods and that is more important.

Hah, I use applydamage in many scripts in both my mods, and I do include the source with both my mods (not sure why you think I don't?). And yes some of the Exi code is based on things you made and you are credited. I still appreciate that you contributed in some ways to the mod Xeno, but at the same time everything that was originally of your contribution has been refactored, extended, optimized and changed so many times they aren't even the  same thing anymore. To put it in perspective, it was like I 100% painted over a piece of art, so that not even one original pixel remains and even the design changed greatly.

And wait, you are pinning using a "game breaking" applydamage method on me? Wowsers the pair on you, every mod that scripts much stuff in combat uses that method. Literally, name a mod that scripts stuff in combat. *You* break it. Do you even play other mods? I don't understand why you don't understand the problems your mods create, especially when I explained all of them in clear short hand manners. So who is the hypocrite here? I think it is the dude that breaks other mods and vanilla, something no other modder really does.


You seriously, need to like step back for a moment, perform some introspection for a bit, maybe *actually* read the things I been saying. And understand that you could fix all the problems I talked about and mentioned in short hands manners in like... A few hours, then your mods would not hurt others. Xeno, I am not doing this to hurt you, I got better things to do with my time. I am doing this because I care, if I didn't care I would just shut the hell up and get on with my life.

Please, respect the work of other modders. I am not asking for the moon here, its a solid evening maybe two of work and it would be appreciated by *everyone* :)

xenoargh

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2017, 03:41:41 AM »

Dude, you post nothing but negative, and this was supposed to be my fun night, off work, updating stuff.  Not listening to whiny posts by people who can't pick out files from a ZIP and endless complaints about how a mechanic got broken; if you'd just said, "my shield-piercers are broke" I'd have just fixed it, frankly; it wasn't until now that I even knew why you were so upset.

I really don't appreciate this; if you were trying to be helpful, you'd have posted in PMs, not slagged my project in public (for months, even).

So, whatever. 

The Form Shield's issues with that very specific problem will get addressed when I'm not entirely sleep-deprived.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2017, 03:47:05 AM »

It was constructive criticism regarding specific mod fixes. And wait nothing but negative? I am pretty sure I praised FX Mod and EZ Faction as being useful.

EZ Faction:
- This is a handy mod for newer modders and even is opt in!


FX Mod:
- This is handy mod for players with weaker computers, and even is opt in for modders!
- Subjectively, I don't think many of the new visuals look very good... Especially those smoke poofs, would look better IMO as just a more generic "space nuke" effect that is a bit closer to vanilla.

That is because I did.

Also, "can't pick out files from a zip". Wait what does that even mean? I spent a fair bit of time doing that as of late :)

And why do you keep mentioning the CIGEN weapons? I already said I use applydamage all over the place as do other modders. You are not reading what I am saying, I am reading what you are saying. Whatever Xeno, you clearly are not interested in making things that work with other things. Maybe you should make a total conversion again? Then it does not matter, anyways it is what it is nothing will change as you are unwilling to even hear what anyone else says.

Originem

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2017, 03:52:59 AM »

Dude, you post nothing but negative, and this was supposed to be my fun night, off work, updating stuff.  Not listening to whiny posts by people who can't pick out files from a ZIP and endless complaints about how a mechanic got broken; if you'd just said, "my shield-piercers are broke" I'd have just fixed it, frankly; it wasn't until now that I even knew why you were so upset.

I have to say, in my respect, you are just breaking other moders' stuff. And maybe you deliberately ignored what Meso is talking about.
I just say my opinions, if you think i'm one of the 'haters', then there is nothing to say. (Hey man I found that you said you will ignore his posts for a while but...hmmm
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Orikson

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2017, 04:35:26 AM »

Reading through the stuff posted, I can't say much that will contribute to the discussion.

I've checked out all the mods, and I see you like do a lot of stuff to fulfill your ideals.

Going on the topic of conflict with other mods, I think it has to do with the lack of time you have to investigate with every single mod that every player could have possibly downloaded and played with your mods.

Another reason I believe some of your mods can cause conflict is related to how they change some parts of the game, but do not account for the parts related to the parts you're changing. Example of this is the default variants that Vanilla has.

I think you should focus on refining one of your mods till it has little to no conflict so that you'll get less pestering from the players and modders.

How about EZ Faction first, then followed by its companion Explorer Society?

Then polish one of the mods you have in mind to perfection.

Another advice I have is to reduce the use of 'mod packs' and go for single packs. Makes it much easier to maintain and reduce the amount of things player has to check whenever they crash either because they didn't read properly or something in the mod is messed up.

I'm not demeaning you capabilities as a modder, but I believe the quality of your mods are a bit lower than they can be because of the divided attention you're giving to the mods you want to give to the player base of Starsector.
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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2017, 07:28:13 AM »

While I understand the frustration of other modders I really can't agree that xeno's mods are being a problem and causes others to "waste time". There are many games with incompatible mods out there, all you need is a notice on you mod page saying "using this mod along xeno's mods might cause problems and unintentional behavior." I believe that the perfect scenario would be to have all working together, but sinking this thread in this discussion and shunning a project because it doesn't do a courtesy isn't the best approach IMO.
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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2017, 04:54:19 PM »

As the rebalance pack is openly described as a total conversion, and total conversions generally break almost all non-cosmetic mods:

Asking for a logic paradox, doesn't make it possible.
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 3a
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2017, 11:11:02 PM »

What's sad is, from what I can tell Meso genuinely wants to help Xeno.

At the rate this is going, though, the only thing I can see coming is mutual hatred and useless drama.
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 4a
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2017, 08:39:24 AM »

Alpha 4 is now available

This update re-balances the Hull Mods.  This is the first, "rough cut" version, but it plays better than Vanilla, imo; there aren't very many Hull Mods that don't look pretty useful.

Surprises include:

1.  It's no longer, "ITU, ITU, ITU".  There are three different range-extension Hull Mods; they all come with some sort of nerf (depending on factors).  Dedicated Targeting Core, for example, can be put on all Hull Sizes, but it costs turret speeds; ITU is cheaper OP-wise, but it comes with acceleration and turn nerfs; Advanced Targeting Core is installable on all Hull Sizes, but it comes with a significant speed nerf.  I don't know whether these are all the right answers, in terms of effects / costs; expect some adjustments (and your feedback is welcome).

Why all these buffs, and why the specific effects?  Simply put, range is the primary "god stat" of this game; it determines whether you can kite indefinitely or whether you can alpha enemies before they can even inflict Hard Flux on your shields.  The nerfs reflect that.

2.  Expanded Magazines is useful for anything that wants high alpha; it boosts firing rates by 50%.

3.  Missile Racks has been replaced with Heavy Missiles; it's a flat damage bonus, so that it's universally useful.

4.  There are several Hull Mods that now drain Hard Flux; this isn't just through Captains.  Makes Hardened Shield Generator actually attractive (it wasn't before, for practically anything but squirrel-case builds).

5.  Solar Shielding is now Ion Shielding; it has all of the benefits of Solar Shielding, but it also protects against Ion weapons, making it a go-to Hull Mod for shieldless ships and ships with poor shield coverage who fight enemies with Ion weapons a lot.

6.  Automated Repair Module is a little bit more powerful; it buffs the repair cost after combat, making it quite useful for "garbage-ball" fleets that want to run at lower costs.

7.  Heavy Armor is actually worth buying for stuff that isn't the Onslaught now, and makes the Onslaught, Dominator and Enforcer fit their role better; it's also really good with Ion Shielding on the Hound and Cerebus.

8.  Augmented Engines has been replaced with Efficient Engines; reduced Fuel cost.  Finally, a Hull Mod for those transports, if you don't mind the Sensor hit.

9.  ECM Package is a flat bonus, not a Hull Size bonus.  It was too unattractive and cost too much to put it on big ships; instead, consider getting a leg up on your fleet's ECM rating by putting it on disposable Frigates or hardened Destroyers.

10.  Probably the most-controversial change; PD AI now gives a flat damage bonus to PD weapons against Missiles / Fighters and does not affect the AI of weapons.  This was really necessary because, combined with ITU / Advanced Optics, it made Wolf swarms with Tac Lasers a little bit too much of a "right answer", imo, because they could clear missiles and fighter swarms, especially if backed up by an Enforcer or two.  I may drop the OP cost a bit later on.

11.  The mods that affect Shield arc sizes are all adjusting the Shield's efficiency, so that the Shield remains par-balanced with the other Vanilla changes.

12.  Flux Shunt, if you can ever find it, can be installed on any ship.  It's expensive but it's quite effective with the other Hard Flux drains.  Might adjust the OP cost later.

13.  Salvage Rig is now installable on any ship, and effects post-battle loot.  It's actually pretty attractive to have it on a few freighters, etc., if you're pretty sure they won't need the OPs for running away during Escape scenarios.  In save-scum games, it's very attractive, but I can see it getting used in Iron Mode, too, to maximize loot.

Yes, I'm aware that, in a few cases, Vanilla Variants aren't using all their OPs or are a little bit over; I really don't care about that until balance is good, and, other than Pirate junk, I'm pretty likely to go to 110% or more to better-reflect player strength.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 12:08:40 PM by xenoargh »
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mehgamer

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 4a
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2017, 05:34:33 PM »

If you don't mind a bit of input, my totally unprofessional words follow:


1.  It's no longer, "ITU, ITU, ITU".  There are three different range-extension Hull Mods; they all come with some sort of nerf (depending on factors).  Dedicated Targeting Core, for example, can be put on all Hull Sizes, but it costs turret speeds; ITU is cheaper OP-wise, but it comes with acceleration and turn nerfs; Advanced Targeting Core is installable on all Hull Sizes, but it comes with a significant speed nerf.  I don't know whether these are all the right answers, in terms of effects / costs; expect some adjustments (and your feedback is welcome).

Why all these buffs, and why the specific effects?  Simply put, range is the primary "god stat" of this game; it determines whether you can kite indefinitely or whether you can alpha enemies before they can even inflict Hard Flux on your shields.  The nerfs reflect that.

I like this, having a cost/benefit to the range+hullmods is nice, so I think something like this is overall a pretty wholesome idea.


2.  Expanded Magazines is useful for anything that wants high alpha; it boosts firing rates by 50%.


That's not what alpha means, and that's a really strong buff don't you think?


3.  Missile Racks has been replaced with Heavy Missiles; it's a flat damage bonus, so that it's universally useful.


I would actually argue that you want to avoid universally good hullmods.  After all, that's why you made 3 range+ hullmods, no?

Also, as far as coding goes, any modification to the damage of a missile only applies to the initial warhead.  This means it will not have an effect on MIRVs, Sabot style weapons, or anything else that has different to-hit values based on stages.  I had the same problem doing my own modding (not that I'm a pro or anything).

4-6 are solid based on your descriptions, though I caution you against making the flux shunt equivalents too powerful - it's very easy to make something like that objectively overpowered (Paragon, anyone?).  Solar shielding buffs are :100: though I really want to like that hullmod but it doesn't really do much, and .8 definitely gave a buff to ARM that hasn't been addressed so if you dislike that I completely understand hitting that a few times with a hammer.

THIS IS ALL IGNORING THE MOST GLARING ISSUE:  FLAT DAMAGE INCREASES AS A MECHANIC.

http://starsector.wikia.com/wiki/Locust_SRM_Launcher


7.  Heavy Armor is actually worth buying for stuff that isn't the Onslaught now, and makes the Onslaught, Dominator and Enforcer fit their role better; it's also really good with Ion Shielding on the Hound and Cerebus.


Well this is just a shame to read!  Pretty much any low tech ship benefits from heavy armor, due to the exponential nature of armor and the reduced weakness to mobility-sacrificing hullmods.  I don't necessarily disagree with this modification, but are you sure you're not underselling the value of armor?


8.  Augmented Engines has been replaced with Efficient Engines; reduced Fuel cost.  Finally, a Hull Mod for those transports, if you don't mind the Sensor hit.


Given how hilarious and gimmicky nav3 is, I never use Augmented Engines anyway, heh.


9.  ECM Package is a flat bonus, not a Hull Size bonus.  It was too unattractive and cost too much to put it on big ships; instead, consider getting a leg up on your fleet's ECM rating by putting it on disposable Frigates or hardened Destroyers.


What you're describing is, as I understand, the entire reason it's locked to hull size.  My only suggestion here is to inflate the cost for smaller ships so it kinda meets in the middle.  Thematically I don't see anything wrong with electronic warfare frigates since realistically this is how thing's be, at least in my head (and in mass effect!), so this is just a personal hesitation, you do you.


10.  Probably the most-controversial change; PD AI now gives a flat damage bonus to PD weapons against Missiles / Fighters and does not affect the AI of weapons.  This was really necessary because, combined with ITU / Advanced Optics, it made Wolf swarms with Tac Lasers a little bit too much of a "right answer", imo, because they could clear missiles and fighter swarms, especially if backed up by an Enforcer or two.  I may drop the OP cost a bit later on.


Eeeeeeeeh, was spamming wolves really that good?  I mean, doesn't sound like those guys would be able to fight anything bigger than other frigates...

I dunno what #11 means so no comment.


12.  Flux Shunt, if you can ever find it, can be installed on any ship.  It's expensive but it's quite effective with the other Hard Flux drains.  Might adjust the OP cost later.


There was a glitch in a mod, I wanna say SRA but don't quote me on that, in .8, where you could get a "mini" flux shunt that was something like 15%.  It was basically a return to the .7.2 perk, and you're suggesting 50%.  This is a Bad Ideatm


13.  Salvage Rig is now installable on any ship, and effects post-battle loot.  It's actually pretty attractive to have it on a few freighters, etc., if you're pretty sure they won't need the OPs for running away during Escape scenarios.  In save-scum games, it's very attractive, but I can see it getting used in Iron Mode, too, to maximize loot.


Either buff the salvage rig itself or nerf the modular hullmod, else there's literally no reason to ever field a real salvage rig.  Otherwise this opens up another style of play (nonbounty salvage combat) and I'm all for it, if slightly wary that it'll be too good.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 06:55:51 PM by mehgamer »
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StarSchulz

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 4a
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2017, 06:52:21 PM »

The, "heavy missiles"  cant be balanced as something good universally with a flat bonus, i don't think. If you say, went with a flat +500 damage- this makes it a decent upgrade on the harpoon or maybe even hammer torpedo but makes it rather small in comparison on a reaper torpedo, 4000 to 4500. Then you run into where this applies to the Locust SRM launcher, and brings each missile from 200 damage to 700 ( x40 ) frag damage.

Numbers like that work better on percentages, since it scales with the original damage.  If you wanted to set it to 50%, it would be a trade-off of sustainability for immediate burst damage. since, instead of 100% more missiles you only get half the potential damage increase.

xenoargh

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 4a
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2017, 07:25:52 PM »

The Heavy Missiles thing is a percentage, sorry that wasn't clear; it's 135% of base damage.  I'm not in favor of flat-damage buffs, largely because +500, for example, would be absurd for Swarmers, but meh for Reapers; I wanted it to feel like, "buff worth having on missile build" but not "I need this on everything".  I don't know whether it's at the perfect spot yet, but it feels OK.

On the Wolves thing... yeah, it was that good, in Vanilla, largely due to having 1200 range and infinite kiting (if equipped with nothing but Tac Lasers).  So the Wolves kited and swept heavier missiles and the Enforcers dealt Kinetic, HE and swarm-killed.  It was a pretty good answer to anything up to late-game hammer-of-doom fleets, honestly.

Quote
That's not what alpha means, and that's a really strong buff don't you think?
I'm using it a little loosely here, in the sense of "damage I can do in a few seconds, before you get close enough to do much harm".  It's not nearly as strong of a buff as you'd think; it brings back the classic problem we had with the Hammerhead's Accelerated Ammo Feeder system, where sure, you got firepower, but you frequently ran out of Flux or put yourself into near-Overload.  It's still situationally useful, I'd say.

Quote
There was a glitch in a mod, I wanna say SRA but don't quote me on that, in .8, where you could get a "mini" flux shunt that was something like 15%.  It was basically a return to the .7.2 perk, and you're suggesting 50%.
It's even higher than that; with all of the gimmicks and the Captain bonus, you can get it to nearly 100%. 

It's a Bad Idea for a handful of Vanilla ships, and that's real, but frankly, I've never found this to be nearly as all-encompassing of a buff as it looked; the ship still runs out of Capacity if it's still firing and taking hits; unless it's a Paragon with huge Dissipation, it's not nearly invulnerable... and I don't mind the Paragon being Doom On a Stick, so long as it's an expensive Doom that most players won't want to use as a solo ship unless they've gone heavily into Combat / Tech (in which case, I don't really mind much, because carriers are a counter now).  I'm testing this out, of course; if it's too much, it's too much and it'll get nerfed (and the Monitor will get the other Hull Mods to stay good).  But thus far, it's not as impressive as you'd think.  The real danger's not on Paragons; it's when things like the Medusa can perma-kite, and the cost's high enough that I don't think that's very attractive atm.  But we'll see.

Quote
Well this is just a shame to read!  Pretty much any low tech ship benefits from heavy armor, due to the exponential nature of armor and the reduced weakness to mobility-sacrificing hullmods.  I don't necessarily disagree with this modification, but are you sure you're not underselling the value of armor?
I've never found the low level of Armor worth it, on anything that wasn't an Onslaught or Dominator, and usually you just want to make them kill more efficiently so that they're not taking hits at all, rather than spend the points on a few more seconds of not-being-killed.  This, combined with the increased Armor resistance in general, means that these ships take a lot of cracking and specific counters, which I think is the right direction.

This is a enough of a buff that I can see myself using it on certain cases where it's been completely unattractive, and it makes the Onslaught able to tank a Reaper, albeit at a high cost in effective maneuverability.  I don't mind an Onslaught whose theme is "armor tank"; it balances against the Paragon well when both themes work, and, like the Paragon, it will still die if you apply the correct levers.
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o0eric0o

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 4a
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2017, 01:51:24 AM »

Hi I have found a problem with your skill rebalance mod. The jar file doesn't have the data for skill but hullmods instead. not sure if that's why I keep getting crashes related to wingcommander$level1.

30507 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Error compiling [scripts.skills.WingCommander$Level1]
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 4a
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2017, 10:59:30 AM »

Oh, dear; that's really not ready for release yet.  It wasn't meant to be uploaded; disregard for now.  Sorry about that :)
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mehgamer

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Re: [0.81a] Starsector Rebalance Pack 4a
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2017, 08:02:54 PM »

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