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Author Topic: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy  (Read 4390 times)

nomadic_leader

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ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« on: May 28, 2017, 11:18:24 AM »

Much of this is perhaps already planned, or already in the game (when the dynamic economy isn't broken).
Just a few ideas; should apply to NPC factions as well as player.


Commodities:

Raw Materials
(produced by developing/owning planets with right conditions and deposits, and maybe smallscale mining at planets or ring systems)
Volatiles
Ores
Organics

Refined Materials:
(require the ores + machinery or something)
Metal
Rare Metal

Produced materials:
Everything else. Machinery, Supplies, food, fuel, luxury goods, etc

-To exract raw materials, refine metal, or produce other stuff requires stockpiles of crew at the market to meet labour force needs.

-To be producing any manufactured good, market needs some combination of metals and/or raw materials as ingredients, modified by planetary conditions. ie. Food needs volatiles and ore for fertilizer, + good sun and planetary conditions.

-Ingredients can come from the planet itself, or trades brought by player fleets or NPC fleets. (setting a slider for what you want to produce increases demands for its ingredients or something, and NPC fleets will respond automatically to this depending on faction relationships)

-Crew production will always happen, but higher rates require food; good planetary conditions; good sun; etc. Bonus production if you have luxury goods and domestic goods stockpiles, etc.


Ships & fleet spawning

-To create new ships for spawning NPC fleets (at faction or player owned planets) or buying in the market, there must be enough metals, rare metals, organics, and heavy machinery are needed.

-Spawning NPC fleets also require enough extra crew for sale in the market.

-When NPC fleets despawn on a market, those ships/crew enter the market/stockpiles

-The sale market and the fleets for spawning both draw on the same stockpile (military/civilian/black depending on fleet)

Trading

-Factions & Player outposts can respond to demand at nearby markets by spawning fleets to trade goods in demand there

-If relationships hostile, factions can pursue smuggling instead

-Volume of trade probably depends on size of both markets and distance from each other.


Politics and War

-NPC factions and players should both be able to colonize worlds and create outposts.

-War shouldn't just occur randomly; it should be for economic/ideological reasons

-Some goods are "subversive": Any that are smuggled, or from an enemy faction, or illegal at recieving faction, are from a friendly faction that is inherently  subversive (ludd, pirates, etc)

-Or Perhaps there could be a different types of government as an attribute for each faction (eg dictatorship, democracy, republic, socialist, religious, anarchic) and certain other governments would be considered 'subversive.'

-The higher the volume of 'subversive' goods at a market, increases instability in the market, and increases likelyhood of the factions going to war.

-So even if Sindria and Indies were not at war, high volume of trade would lead to instability & possibly war, if say Sindria is dictatorship and Indies were socialists.

-This simulates the flow of people and ideas that always accompanies economic intercourse between nations, and can lead to conflict or friendship.

-Player faction ideology perhaps set by something kind of like Dominions4 scales that effect productivity

-The higher volume of non subversive trade between markets increases friendly relations between factions, especially if they share ideologoy.

-Cessation of that trade, due to say piracy, or maybe a more favorable trade route somewhere else opening up, reduces friendliness.

-During war, players & NPC factions can use large fleets to destroy orbital defenses and enemy fleets around planets

-Then with enough troop transports and marines, enemy planets can be conquered.

-Depending on faction attributes, faction may truce and/or surrender at certain points when its resources get too low, etc.

Any others ideas?
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Histidine

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 08:03:53 PM »

I've had broadly similar ideas for handling of fleet spawning. An extra feature:
Spoiler
Random power-3 population planets and the like are unlikely to be building their own ships; one would expect shipyards to only be found at major industrial centers. Rather, when the small market needs to stock more ships, it places an order with a non-hostile yard, which builds the ships and delivers them as a campaign fleet.

If there aren't any shipyards handy (the scenario I'm thinking of is in Nexerelin when all friendly shipbuilding worlds have been captured by an enemy, or just have a huge backlog) the small market could build an "improvised shipyard" for itself, but it would naturally work much less efficiently.
[close]
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A.Winge

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 10:11:26 PM »

I just want to be able to establish my own bases/factions.  The market system could work similarly to how the economy says it works (although I certainly cannot confirm if it does):  different bases produce different resources, and require different commodities.

Something along these lines (basically expanding on the Commodities portion of the OP):
  • The player can use survey data to establish an outpost.  The location's attributes will determine the resources it provides and the demands on said outpost.
  • The player must provide credits, resources, or both to begin initial production.  Production maintenance can be done either by delivering resources or using trade caravans.
  • The player can set up multiple outposts in order to mine multiple resources.
  • The player can hire trade caravans or convoys to help support the supply chain without his help.
  • The player can opt to set up bounties to defend the system, if he/she deems fit.
  • The player can add NPC fleets to his faction, but must pay commission for the fleets.
  • The player can set up a tax rate which will provide income, but lower output/trade demand/fleet production, etc.

Ideally, the player will need to put in some effort to set up the outposts and systems, but otherwise will only need to do limited maintenance.  I feel it is essential to keep the player in the bulk of the game (combat/exploration), not staring over charts or solely doing supply runs.
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cjuicy

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 08:27:57 AM »

Perhaps this can tie into high-level pirate raids or (if built close enough to a [REDACTED] System) glassing/orbital bombardment fleets.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 09:14:22 AM »

I've had broadly similar ideas for handling of fleet spawning. An extra feature:
Spoiler
Random power-3 population planets and the like are unlikely to be building their own ships; one would expect shipyards to only be found at major industrial centers. Rather, when the small market needs to stock more ships, it places an order with a non-hostile yard, which builds the ships and delivers them as a campaign fleet.
[close]


Good points. Small markets would probably only have ships leftover from trade convoys that despawned during a disruption that made it profitable to deliver stuff to them.

Another possibility, taken from A.Winge, is to let NPC factions hire merc fleets as well for defense of little markets. They could adapt the faction's IFF transponder, but they'd still be using merc type ships. (The supply & cost of mercs for hire is something I haven't thought out yet)

ENDGAME FOCUS FOR PLAYER
Winge, I think as you get to the upper upper level of the game, it should be a lot more strategic oriented, and less about doing the same old bounty or exploration missions.

The player should be spending more time looking at the strategic map and adjusting economic sliders to keep and hold territory, and provide supplies/fuel for your armadas. There's no way for the game to present you with new tactical challenge when you have an uber fleet, nor is it possible for fielding an uber fleet to be profitable in itself. The game can still present strategic challenges though.

Players who find this strategic stuff boring could opt to keep a more midsized fleet and work for NPC factions, and not graduate to holding territory.

I imagine in the endgame, a player would step into battle only for the big events, like when he's taking a new outpost or defending one of his own from invasion or destruction.
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TrashMan

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 06:20:32 AM »

*SNIP*

Your own bases? Yes.

You being your own faction/nation with tarrifs? Nope.
What other nation would allow it?
Not even filthy rich people today an just go and start their own mini-country.

One faction or another would consider your territory theirs and would demand taxes.
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Megas

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2017, 06:22:47 AM »

Quote
One faction or another would consider your territory theirs and would demand taxes.
And then I say "No" and fight them, exactly as planned, especially when the end goal is complete sector domination or destruction.

Also, why are not the indies, or the Sindrians for that matter (since the founder did what the player may want to do), completely subjugated by a major faction?  How did Sindrians become a major faction in the first place when it was founded by someone doing what the player wants to do?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 06:25:56 AM by Megas »
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zaimoni

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2017, 06:43:23 AM »

Your own bases? Yes.

You being your own faction/nation with tarrifs? Nope.
What other nation would allow it?
Not even filthy rich people today an just go and start their own mini-country.
Somalia's the closest modern analogy, but yes you have to go back a few centuries to find it actually happening.  pre-Renaissance Italy being the most recent example.  (Teutonic knights made a go of it in Germany/Poland/... and made life hell for Nicolaus Copernicus, but in the end couldn't make it stick.)

Sindria is interesting (I'm planning a defector-to-Sindria run after a Hegemony run, once .81 releases and the eternal war bug is quashed).  They're the one system that's pretty much capable of meeting all of its non-luxury demands intra-system.
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Megas

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2017, 08:10:54 AM »

With random dungeon outer worlds, player may stumble on a class V Terran planet that has everything.  All you need is enough people to develop and run the place... and enough firepower to repel anyone from stealing your claim.
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DeltaV_11.2

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 04:13:45 PM »

Personally, I'd treat "hulls" and weapons as their own resource for economic purposes. Then, when they player opens a market, however many are present in the economic system
get divvied up into the actual ships and weapons for sale depending on the faction preferences(perhaps there should be differentiation between classes of ships, i.e. high tech, civilian, etc). Spawning of fleets would be driven by the demand satisfaction of these items, along with crew and supplies. This might mean that a major fleet center could still spawn a lot of units even though you as the player don't see much stock, because it's a bit short so there isn't much stockpiled. That's a good thing though, and represents factions hoarding military resources for themselves.

Basically, we already have a pretty good economic system in place. That should be extended into how economics and fleets interact in a manner that preserves the underlying system.

As for invasions, it seems pretty simple down the line. Factions would try to gain space control with fleets directed to engage near a target, and then they would send in transport fleets to actually invade the planet/habitat/stations. Probably a more sophisticated NPC fuel/supply representation would be good to make wars proceed over time.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: ideas for dynamic outposts, war, & economy
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2017, 04:15:36 PM »

^^Yea, the ships/weapons should certainly be part of the economy.

If it's just about getting a base, then it means the player endgame fleet would never have to worry about fuel or supplies again, and just stomp anything in the galaxy. But then what is the challenge of endgame?

Sure the game could decide that "well the player is big, so I should just spawn a bunch of bigger AI fleets." The problem is, that kind of challenge doesn't scale indefinitely; it becomes tedious. And from a lore perspective, it doesn't make sense that other factions suddenly all get tougher just because you do.

So I think there needs to be a strategic element to create endgame challenge, where the problem is to hold territory and expand to new territory, while making sure your 'faction economy' keeps providing you with what you need.
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