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Author Topic: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons  (Read 5279 times)

xenoargh

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The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« on: May 23, 2017, 03:43:42 PM »

Alex, please buff the attack radius on the Mining Drones. 

They're a little less than wonderful right now, because with a 500-pixel tether, they can barely get away from a Venture's hull, let alone do anything useful, like harass nearby Frigates. They turn too slowly to be extra, free PD systems, and they can't take hits well enough to serve as meatshields.  Compared to Talons, they're simply underwhelming.  Yes, Talons are a bit OP, but when we're talking about two versions of, "for 0 OPs, you get this thing" they're polar opposites; one's pretty useful, if not as ubiquitous as some have alleged... the other I avoid like the plague.

But they kind of highlight another issue: 

Fighter Wings aren't anything at all like balanced vs. each other right now, and could use another balance pass between now and 0.9.

Suggested Edits:
In general, most fighters that aren't [redacted] aren't fast enough to keep up with Frigates.  This feels thematically wrong and it screws up their balance; one Frigate can lead huge numbers of fighters on a long and merry chase.  But not an infinite chase; eventually, they'll hit their tether point and then they've wasted all that time going after a target they couldn't catch or kill.  Depending on the fighter, that might be a very long walk home.  Frigates should fear Fighters, because they can't run away from them; the Frigate's fleet either kills the source carrier or the Frigate will die, eventually.  It's not working like that right now.

Spoiler
Mining Drones:  increase their radius to 1500, long enough to do something useful as support, give them a second Mining Laser, so that they're semi-effective  combatants, give them a bit more armor so that they're more effective as meatshields, and decrease the rebuild time, so they don't feel like a one-shot.

Gladius:  better armor / hitpoints, so that they survive a little longer, plus increase their Dissipation and Capacity so that they can sustain fire long enough to be useful.  They Flux-choke badly right now.

Warthog:  Give them a boost to Dissipation / Capacity.  They're Flux-choking occasionally.  They also simply don't feel burly enough, which, given their description, makes them a bit disappointing.  Perhaps give them Accelerated Ammo Feeder?

Broadswords:  Give them a light shield and better speed / acceleration stats, so that they can actually be Interceptors, in the classic sense.

Dagger:  if they're stuck with a weak torpedo, then give them a defensive weapon that's actually worth caring about, like a LRPD, so they're not totally useless on the way in / out.

Wasp:  lower their OP costs somewhat; they're not competitive with Talons, except for not costing Crew.  That isn't enough.  I'm aware Talons will probably get nerfed a little (hopefully not too much!) but the Wasp should actually be worth keeping, not ditch-worthy the minute we have [redacted] LPCs.

Xyphos:  They used to be somewhat cool support craft, but now that the number of fighters in the initial launch matters more, they feel a bit underwhelming for their huge OP costs.  Maybe give them a Phase Lance and two PD Lasers, with Flux to support same, so that they can kill opposing fighters and be quite dangerous in numbers again?  They feel like they don't have a real job right now.

The Piranha, Hoplon, and Trident are all OK, although the Trident's pretty lame for what it costs.  It should have a weapon that deals Hard Flux other than the torpedoes, if it's going to remain priced where it is.  Consider having a rapid-fire version of the IR Pulse, maybe, that's twice the rate of fire but half as effective per-shot, just to make fighters attacking each other during passes better at generating hits?

The Thunder lacks enough speed and it doesn't behave well with the Harpoon; it should either reload that sucker constantly and use it constantly, or it should be given a regenerating missile type, imo.  I like what Thunders do to unshielded opponents or the rear of Dominators / Onslaughts, but that doesn't actually make them all that special.  I feel like they're a jack-of-all-trades fighter that doesn't do anything well right now, and they suffer from tiny Wing size.

The Longbow is quite powerful, exactly once, on a well-timed alpha strike.  An Astral using them that way can be devastating.  However, it's not that great when it goes in piecemeal.  I feel that this is an AI issue more than anything; fighters built around missile / bomb strikes should wait until their entire Wing is rebuilt before attacking again, so that they do something useful.  The only fighters where I don't see this as a big problem are Piranhas, where clouds of bomblets from each one kind of cancels out the piecemeal problem.
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Gothars

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2017, 04:02:31 PM »

Mh, you want almost every fighter buffed. Do you feel they are weak overall? Because they seem pretty strong to me, definitely a fearsome enemy for frigates. I agree with the mining drone ideas, but the rest seems fine.


Thunders are gonna be quite different in the next update btw, long range, extremely fast, but without the Harpoon.
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Megas

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2017, 05:42:06 PM »

Dagger:  if they're stuck with a weak torpedo, then give them a defensive weapon that's actually worth caring about, like a LRPD, so they're not totally useless on the way in / out.
I like to see Atropos powered-up a bit, maybe 1200 damage.  1000 damage for a 2 OP one-shot is too low even for playerships.  Every time I hit stuff with my 2 OP Atropos, it just felt too weak.  Not as satisfying to land with a Reaper or even a Hammer.  I get the feeling that Atropos were balanced for Astral-and-Dagger combo spam, much like Damper Field might get weakened yet again thanks to Mora (and shafting Centurion and Brawler in the process).

Trident just costs too much.  Even Dagger is a bit overpriced for comfort.


Xyphos would be okay as auxiliary ion beams.  The problem with that is the ships that can use them well are not very good (e.g., Odyssey) or have more range than Xyphos (e.g., cruisers and capitals with long-range ballistics) and they do not fire if your ship kites from extreme range.

Mh, you want almost every fighter buffed. Do you feel they are weak overall?
Only most of the "balanced" ones.  Overpowered stuff like Talons and Sparks are fun and lets most carriers save OP on fighters and have enough OP to mount the good weapons and hullmods to fight effectively.
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AxleMC131

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2017, 07:16:29 PM »

Thunders are gonna be quite different in the next update btw, long range, extremely fast, but without the Harpoon.

Damn, that sucks.  :'( I've always had a soft spot for the Thunder, and I liked the single Harpoon it carried. Always nice for a little extra punch.

Ah well. As long as it's keeping its speed, I'm not going to shun it any time soon.  ;)
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TaLaR

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2017, 09:17:30 PM »

Mh, you want almost every fighter buffed. Do you feel they are weak overall?
Only most of the "balanced" ones.  Overpowered stuff like Talons and Sparks are fun and lets most carriers save OP on fighters and have enough OP to mount the good weapons and hullmods to fight effectively.

Talons tear to pieces any frigates except phase and Hyperion. Even vs frigate under player control (no skills) simple sim Condor with Talons is a close fight, doable only in best frigates (like Tempest) and costing near whole CR in process.
Talons also destroy any DE not specifically built to counter them (which is huge opportunity cost vs more conventional targets), and even anti-fighter optimized Medusa is fairly weak against them compared to other DEs.

Buffing rest of fighters to same standard would make frigates (except phase and Hyperion) nonviable for player fleet, as well as seriously cripple DEs.
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Dri

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2017, 10:48:53 PM »

All I'm gonna say is that I agree on the Gladius flux choking really bad. Needs a higher flux capacity for sure.
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Embolism

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2017, 01:15:50 AM »

I don't see why shielded fighters get a built-in "no weapon flux" hullmod while non-shielded fighters don't. Unless all shielded fighters are designed to never flux choke even without the hullmod that seems like an extra, unnecessary advantage. I'd say either every fighter should get that mod (and make flux meaningless for non-shielded fighters) or none of them should get it and flux stats be adjusted accordingly.

And before someone jumps in yes, I do know why shielded fighters get the hullmod. It's the inconsistency I'm pointing out given the hullmod affects more than just shield effectiveness.
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Megas

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2017, 06:47:14 AM »

Buffing rest of fighters to same standard would make frigates (except phase and Hyperion) nonviable for player fleet, as well as seriously cripple DEs.
Then OP for most fighters should be lowered across the board a bit (and some by a lot for overpriced stuff like Gladius and torpedo bombers).  Without effective cheap shots like Talons, Sparks, and Khopesh to save on OP, my ships would struggle to squeeze in decent weapons, max flux, and the obligatory Expended Deck Crew and ITU.

I would rather see Talons' OP cost raised (to a range from 5 to 8 ) than have them weakened to irrelevance, unless revamped Thunders will be the current Talon.

Talons are great against small stuff, but not so much against bigger ships.  (They are still good, just not as good as a Broadsword and Warthog combo at killing things.)  Things like Broadswords and Lux are not so effective against small ships, but can survive a bit longer against big ships.

Drover with Broadswords and Warthogs and no weapons installed can do better than Drover with two Talons and two Light Needlers, at least against some of the larger targets.
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Megas

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2017, 07:47:21 AM »

As for Warthogs, I like their top speed to be raised (so they do not lag behind other fighters so much), and maybe OP cost lowered a bit.  Currently, they are only useful if the carrier stays near the enemy, which AI controlled carriers do not do.  Only the playership does that.
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xenoargh

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2017, 10:54:23 AM »

Quote
Mh, you want almost every fighter buffed.
Nah, just the obvious problem children. 

I'm in favor of a light nerf to the Talon, btw.  I just hope they don't get nerfed back into being really sub-optimal again; they're not hugely  OP, just a bit better than alternatives for costs.  What's happening there is that the Talon's missile output (10 per pack per launch) is just a bit much... not that Talons are amazing otherwise.  Nerf the missiles (either reload times or drop from 2 to 1) and they're pretty much fixed, imo.

I don't mind fighters slaying Frigates, btw.  That's how it should work; if you pay Crew and all the costs for Carriers, they should be efficient at something.  If the real issue is, "countering fighters is not cost-effective for Frigates", there are lots of reasonable fixes for that.  But let's start with some basics:

1.  Low / Mid Tech Frigates don't have a Flak- equivalent weapon available.  Closest match is the Light Mortar, which is a joke. Give it an AOE and make it PD, perhaps then it has a role to play?

2.  Is it really a problem that High Tech has problems countering Low Tech fighter swarms?  Or is that a feature?  Moreover, given how efficient Wolf packs are as anti-fighter platforms, is that a real problem, or just players using the wrong tools for the job?

If that's a real problem, the best fix is adjustment of Energy weapons so that they're not quite so gimped on efficiency and maybe have a burst-fire Beam on the low end that's specifically designed for single-target damage.  Oh, wait, I already did that.  It works, btw; the base balance of Vanilla is actually better in that situation. 

To put it another way; it certainly makes massive Talon spam less effective, when you spend OPs on my modified Mining Lasers and Vents rather than Burst PD.

Quote
I would rather see Talons' OP cost raised (to a range from 5 to 8 ) than have them weakened to irrelevance, unless revamped Thunders will be the current Talon.
Totally agreed.  The problem isn't that Talons are effective; it's that they're so effective per OP spent.

Quote
I don't see why shielded fighters get a built-in "no weapon flux" hullmod while non-shielded fighters don't.
Agreed.  This should be a feature of fighters in general, imo.  Watching them Flux-choke is pretty annoying.
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ahrenjb

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2017, 11:03:42 AM »

I'm all for expanding the tether a little bit on some things, but at the same time some wings that you want to stay close (like PD wings, such as the mining pod) wander too far even when set to recall, and you lose the PD coverage they afford in the first place while they get popped like balloons by a PD frigate. How do you control that without adding additional fighter control mechanics?

I'm not sure what the big hubbub is for achieving some kind of hypothetical perfect balance is in a game for one. Some things should just be better than others in my opinion. Make them harder to find maybe, or more expensive, but that's part of the joy of an open world single player game. Finding things that are just better than what you're using is part of the fun. Losing them when your carefully fitted ship with excruciatingly sourced wings and weapons is also part of it.
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Megas

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2017, 12:05:37 PM »

Another thing that makes Talons good is four per wing.  With two-thirds rule, you need to kill two Talons to threaten replacement rate.  Lower wing to three, and only one Talon needs to die before rate starts dropping.  Three Talon wings should weaken them quite a bit.

And Lux is good, if you want somewhat tanky fighters, because of four per wing instead of three like Broadswords and Warthogs.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 12:08:16 PM by Megas »
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Techhead

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Re: The Mining Drones Vs. The Talons
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 12:17:13 PM »

One thing about the Mining Pod Wing being terrible is that there is one ship that's stuck with them, the Venture. Other ships can choose to use other fighters (although some need Converted Hangar to do so), but the Venture is saddled up with it as a built-in wing (and cannot mount Converted Hangar due to them).
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