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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: A Tale of Two Tech Levels (05/28/21)

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Author Topic: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?  (Read 23205 times)

Andy H.K.

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2017, 10:08:42 PM »

I don't Admire Alex or his team, I admire their works. I don't just want Starsector to be how I want it to be, I want it to become many more people's favourite game. My opinion as a consumer is that Alex's prescribed gameplay is right on the track. I'd like to see SS reach out and be accessed by more people, I'd like to see them having as much enjoyment as we had.

It's not capitalism, it's not altruism, it's about wanting the good game that we have right now to be successful as it deserve.
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SCC

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2017, 10:48:23 PM »

@Alex does reputation boost with hegemony at the start makes them less likely to bother you? If so, it's a bit useful, if not, it's just a buffer for making mistakes.
I like tutorial, I've voluntarily played it a few times, even though I knew the game already and I'm good enough at games to understand most mechanics on my own. I think that semi-solution to skippability would be allowing the player to cut through tutorial; go find that probe and take its guts, give it to Hegemony and have the patrol punch the miners out of the jump point.

Megas

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2017, 08:42:02 AM »

Tutorial is irrelevant with the Hegemony.  You get your relation boost with them with or without tutorial.

The main benefit of doing the tutorial is the starter clunker fleet and rare weapons you may get, i.e., Heavy Blaster and maybe a Railgun.

The main benefit of skipping tutorial, aside from having money, Sustained Burn, and possible Hegemony commission now, is pirates' reputation is still at -65.

If you want better relations with pirates, you want to skip tutorial.  Otherwise, you probably end up at Vengeful playing through tutorial.
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A.Winge

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2017, 11:00:31 AM »

I don't Admire Alex or his team, I admire their works. I don't just want Starsector to be how I want it to be, I want it to become many more people's favourite game. My opinion as a consumer is that Alex's prescribed gameplay is right on the track. I'd like to see SS reach out and be accessed by more people, I'd like to see them having as much enjoyment as we had.

It's not capitalism, it's not altruism, it's about wanting the good game that we have right now to be successful as it deserve.

This is closer to how I feel.  Starsector is already a good game, I would love to see it surpass games like SPAZ and EV Nova simply because I enjoy playing great games.

As to the question at hand, maybe an in-between option is better.  Perhaps, allow the player to skip the Tutorial on the first run, but have a warning confirmation dialog box?
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Megas

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2017, 11:04:44 AM »

As to the question at hand, maybe an in-between option is better.  Perhaps, allow the player to skip the Tutorial on the first run, but have a warning confirmation dialog box?
I like this.  It feels like Nightmare difficulty warning from Doom "Are you sure? This skill level isn't even remotely fair!"
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Dri

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2017, 03:13:23 PM »

Just how often do you guys reinstall the game that this would become an issue?! When the game finally releases we won't be installing a new version every time a new alpha/beta update is pushed, so that is all the more reason to simply leave it as mandatory.

Few things annoy me more than to see a thread made by some guy whining that such-and-such feature isn't present, when in fact it is, but he couldn't be assed into looking through the options for it! The average Joe doesn't go through options, he doesn't do any research before he plays a certain game—a first-time play tutorial is just what is needed for these guys.
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Megas

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2017, 04:12:23 PM »

Even when I played 0.8 for the first time, I was not happy at all that I was not allowed to select skip tutorial option (even though I planned on playing it anyway just to see what it did).  I saw the disabled skip option, but it is like the game taunted me by telling me "You are too stupid to think for yourself!  You cannot be allowed to make bad choices like not playing tutorial and suffering due to your stubborn pride!  Therefore, we must protect you from yourself!"  Yes, making any saved game bypasses, but it feels sloppy.

Also, it is not merely installing the game.  It is also fresh start by wiping all old games (by deleting the whole folder) or whatever.  Sure, it can be bypassed, but it is an extra step.

I do not like that everyone must be lumped as average joes or otherwise too incompetent to think for themselves or be trusted to do the right thing, even though it may be fashionable these days.  It seems like political elitism.
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K-64

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2017, 04:18:13 PM »

Dude, you're making a huge fuss over something that is utterly insignificant and a minuscule inconvenience at most. Like I'd understand a bit of "Eh, it's a bit of a hassle but whatevs", but the overreactions here just make you look like the incompetents you think you're getting lumped in with.
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Megas

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #98 on: May 15, 2017, 04:25:07 PM »

It is not an overreaction.  It is what I thought when I played it.  Dismissing or downplaying players for venting their grievances just because you do not agree with them does not make them incompetent.  They are paying customers as much as others.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2017, 06:22:05 PM »

One can just as easily say it's an overreaction to force people to play the tutorial the first time they play the game.
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Andy H.K.

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2017, 07:05:04 PM »

Guess we'll have to cater to people who would give a negative review because of forced tutorial now.

That said, I did expect the then-non-existant campaign tutorial to be in its separate tab, in an independent map, explain game mechanics in a more out-of-universe tone, and end as soon as it's done its job. The current tied-in introductory quest is nice, but the above-mentioned method is also an option.

I guess it would also be the preferred method comes outpost - no reason to gift an outpost just because.

What we lack here is newcomer's perspective. Do they find the tutorial in its current form obstructive?
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RawCode

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2017, 04:11:45 AM »

issue is not tutorial itself, tutorial is fine, sadly, it does not teach ANYTHING at all, you have all required information on skill tooltips anyway.
i jumped into game skipping tutorial via moding and suffered no side effects at all.

i can read tooltips.

issue is how tutorial is presented and how "skip dialog" is implemented:

do you want to skip tutorial?
1) no
2) yes (nope, you going to take tutorial bro, take it or leave)

this is illusion of choice, fake choice, hobson choice also you can call it mockery choice.

some people do not like it, especially people who aware about "treat your customers like idiots" stuff.
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FooF

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2017, 07:07:33 AM »

This is a weird hill to die on. I've yet to make the leap in logic where doing a game's tutorial equates to calling someone an "idiot", "incompetent," etc. I didn't think inanimate objects had the ability to judge a person's character.

Seriously, this is a really minor issue.


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nomadic_leader

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2017, 07:13:27 AM »

If it's a minor issue why not just let people skip it? :) A weird hill to die on indeed.
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SCC

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Re: Why MUST we play the tutorial first?
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2017, 09:10:51 AM »

@RawCode to me it was well done, you could learn in controlled environment without the risk of getting destroyed due to random pirate fleet. The only risks you take are ones game tells you to take.

@Alex rename "tutorial" to "introduction".
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