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[Megas]

I still do not like the idea of it forced and rammed down my throat, regardless of the motivation.  Suggestions for newcomers.  Sure.  Forced to play?  NO!

There is even a tutorial button on the main screen for basic game mechanics.  The campaign tutorial should be as optional as that.

As for complaints about not knowing what to do because they did not play tutorial?  How about complaints about being forced to play the tutorial?!

[Techhead]

you must complete tutorial EVERY time you start game without existing save, EVERY TIME.

reinstalled game - forced to do tutorial
other computer - tutorial
play ironman with save wipe on defeat - tutorial
lost save for any other reason - tutorial

yes tutorial is fun, but only single time in entire life.

You only actually have to start the tutorial, not complete it.

[Histidine]

I'm now idly wondering if there's a way to devise a "PLAY THIS TUTORIAL OR VOID YOUR WARRANTY" confirmation dialog such that (people who don't play tutorial, get rekt and complain about it) < (people who complain about forced tutorial) at time of public release.

[Embolism]

I'm now idly wondering if there's a way to devise a "PLAY THIS TUTORIAL OR VOID YOUR WARRANTY" confirmation dialog such that (people who don't play tutorial, get rekt and complain about it) < (people who complain about forced tutorial) at time of public release.

Be nice if skipping the tutorial locks you out of making steam reviews .

[10900209]

I still do not like the idea of it forced and rammed down my throat, regardless of the motivation.  Suggestions for newcomers.  Sure.  Forced to play?  NO!

This.  I can't remember ever playing any game that forced me to play through a 30 minute tutorial before I could get to the game.  That's just weird.

One gets the impression that the people defending forced tutorials because reasons would defend literally any design decision Alex makes out of sheer principle.

[Thaago]

I still do not like the idea of it forced and rammed down my throat, regardless of the motivation.  Suggestions for newcomers.  Sure.  Forced to play?  NO!

This.  I can't remember ever playing any game that forced me to play through a 30 minute tutorial before I could get to the game.  That's just weird.

One gets the impression that the people defending forced tutorials because reasons would defend literally any design decision Alex makes out of sheer principle.

Its not out of sheer principle, its because we agree from a game design standpoint. When you have a brutal and complex game like SS, people will skip the tutorial, have a terrible time, and then pan the game. There is very little more harmful to an indie game than bad reviews - it doesn't matter that they are "wrong".

So yes. Force a tutorial.

As a side note, the tutorial is fun. Yes its on rails, but its a nice scenario that has a whole host of good gameplay in it.

[Alex]

It's pretty much a known fact that people - especially the people you really don't want doing it - will skip tutorials if they are skippable. "This is why we can't have nice things" etc etc. So: unskippable tutorial, but trivial to bypass if you've played before (start game, exit, start another game). Apologies for the inconvenience.

I didn't like the forced tutorial myself when I first saw it but I got over it within 10 seconds by, you know, starting a new game. For Alex a few seconds of "wasted time" from people who already brought the game is a small "price" to pay if it means just one less stupid negative Steam review.

Yeah, that's exactly the calculus here. That said, there's probably no reason not to store this in the registry rather than requiring a save to be present, so that a clean install doesn't force you to bypass it again. I forget exactly why I did it that way - possibly just because the logic was easier to test while coding the tutorial.

... there, done.

[Midnight Kitsune]

Couldn't the game store a simple value in the registry that tells the game that we completed the tutorial? I feel like that would be the best way to do this. And maybe even split the tutorial up in parts or sections so that old players only need to do the tutorial for new concepts (like outposts and such)
Edit: Ninja'd by Alex himself!

[nomadic_leader]

It's pretty much a known fact that people - especially the people you really don't want doing it - will skip tutorials if they are skippable. "This is why we can't have nice things" etc etc. So: unskippable tutorial, but trivial to bypass if you've played before (start game, exit, start another game). Apologies for the inconvenience.

Starsector is not a national tax code or a firearm, so question: Who cares about those people? It can't be a matter of money, or you'd be in a different business rather than developing one indie game for 6 years. Perhaps in general avoid making design compromises for hypothetical, incredibly limited customers on steam; cater to the customers who've actually paid 15$ for the game before it even finished.

Real people should be allowed to skip the tutorial, even if it's the first time they downloaded and opened the app.

[AxleMC131]

Starsector is not a national tax code or a firearm, so question: Who cares about those people? It can't be a matter of money, or you'd be in a different business rather than developing one indie game for 6 years. Perhaps in general avoid making design compromises for hypothetical, incredibly limited customers on steam; cater to the customers who've actually paid 15$ for the game before it even finished.

Real people should be allowed to skip the tutorial, even if it's the first time they downloaded and opened the app.

Umm, you seem to be unaware that Starsector's community is tiny for what it is. The moment it pops up on Steam it's popularity is going to skyrocket - unless the majority of people stick bad reviews because they didn't play the tutorial and "don't understand the game".

Also, and I hate to say it, but saying "real people" like that is just mean to the population as a whole.   Everyone's a person. It's kind of egotistical to not consider some people "real".

[Andy H.K.]

It's pretty much a known fact that people - especially the people you really don't want doing it - will skip tutorials if they are skippable. "This is why we can't have nice things" etc etc. So: unskippable tutorial, but trivial to bypass if you've played before (start game, exit, start another game). Apologies for the inconvenience.

Starsector is not a national tax code or a firearm, so question: Who cares about those people? It can't be a matter of money, or you'd be in a different business rather than developing one indie game for 6 years. Perhaps in general avoid making design compromises for hypothetical, incredibly limited customers on steam; cater to the customers who've actually paid 15$ for the game before it even finished.

Real people should be allowed to skip the tutorial, even if it's the first time they downloaded and opened the app.

Hmm.... Suppose people are allowed to skip the tutorial.... Real people know how things go, they skipped the tutorial and are surviving in the sector just fine. "Fake" people on the other hand get overwhelmed, maybe they have problem navigating, maybe they forget about supplies/CR, anyway they died to what "real" people consider "stupid mistake/basic knowledge" . That leave a bad taste in their mouth, they leave a negative review, or claimed a refund, or both.

So no, from a certain point of view it IS a matter of money. I think what Alex did is a sound business practice, beneficial to his mental health even.

[Tartiflette]

It's pretty much a known fact that people - especially the people you really don't want doing it - will skip tutorials if they are skippable. "This is why we can't have nice things" etc etc. So: unskippable tutorial, but trivial to bypass if you've played before (start game, exit, start another game). Apologies for the inconvenience.

I think there is still the issue of the dual tutorials. I read about people that skipped the campaign tutorial because they did the combat one and thought both were the same and didn't want to do it twice. I'm sure this is just a matter of either renaming them or combining them, but something could be done there too.

[Megas]

This.  I can't remember ever playing any game that forced me to play through a 30 minute tutorial before I could get to the game.  That's just weird.

I played games for decades.  This is the first game ever where I was forced to play tutorial.  I do not like it at all!

If I skip the tutorial, then get clobbered because I do not know what to do, then it makes sense to go to the tutorial, read the manual, or equivalent.

We should be able to opt-in.  We cannot opt-out without chicanery.

[zaimoni]

"Forced to play tutorial" is standard for MMORPGs (unconditionally!).  It's dictated by needing to target a mass-market demographic.

In this case, after-first-time skipping the tutorial is self-sabotaging.  (And the game lets me skip the tutorial even after I have deleted all saves, it's remembering that I have played it through at least once.)  I tried that exactly once: until I can play Ironman at all reasonably, I have no business self-sabotaging by opting out of the tutorial.  (I expect this to be after the .81 release.)

[Megas]

I have avoided MMORPGs.  At first because I did not have reliable connections.  Later (after playing Diablo II) because I did not want to get sucked into a grindfest.

Tutorial start is useful; you get free storage and a chance for a Heavy Blaster find.  Even so, I would like the option to skip it and get my money and all of my abilities (especially Sustained Burn) now!