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[Gothars]

I like the base mechanics, but I think they have a lot of untapped potential.

Here are two ideas:

1)Datacenter (ship order): Ships can be ordert to "go mainframe" with a command point, increasing the EW/Nav bonus they provide, but dramatically reducing the ships own speed and weapon range. Conceptually, they re-route all power to their computer systems and use the processing power to provide aiming and navigation data for the fleet. This can be used to various effects:

- allows slow ships to play a role in fast pursuit/mopping up
- when the enemy does it, provides a tactical target to destroy
- give civilians a role in combat
- gives more use to command points


2)Temporary Overclock (fleet wide order): Electronic Warfare rating/nav bonus is spiked temporarily (~10 seconds?) by a coordinated "DoS attack" for the cost of a command point. During this time enemy weapon range can be reduced more than normally. Afterwards your processors have to cool down and your EW rating is lowered temporarily, providing an opportunity for a counter-strike.

This would turn EW into a more interactive, dynamic mechanic that you can't just ignore. And give more use to command points, too.

[PCCL]

I love it!

We can also have hullmods that increase the effectiveness of these. Heck, maybe even print a ship or two that exist purely as support platforms.

If balance necessitates, we can lock these behind player skills, so that's interesting too.


I will say though, I still don't necessarily like the idea of ships being fully effective sitting completely off in a corner somewhere. Maybe stick a range limit on these abilities? That might be too complicated so idk.... Otherwise I feel we need to somehow make civilian ships less effective than military ships in that regard.

[intrinsic_parity]

Ships can be ordert to "go mainframe" with a command point, increasing the EW/Nav bonus they provide, but dramatically reducing the ships own speed and weapon range

I really like this idea. It might be better to do it with hull mods maybe? Have a like a 'targeting computers' hull mod that cuts the ships own stats (I personally think limiting speed and flux stats makes the most sense because the ship with the targeting computers should benefit from it's own increased range) but offers a big fleet wide range bonus. There could be analogous hullmods for EW, but also some other interesting ones like fleet wide flux stat buffs or something? Maybe ships that when ordered to escort another ship just give it an extra 1000 flux capacity and some venting or something. Missile resupply ships also. There are so many cool ideas for in-combat support ships.

It would also make combat a lot more tactical, as you would want to take down support ships before the rest of the fleet. I imagine taking you phase ship around the flank to destroy their targeting computer support and EW center before ordering a full assault and decimating them, that would be so cool.

Electronic Warfare rating/nav bonus is spiked temporarily (~10 seconds?) by a coordinated "DoS attack" for the cost of a command point. During this time enemy weapon range can be reduced more than normally. Afterwards your processors have to cool down and your EW rating is lowered temporarily, providing an opportunity for a counter-strike.

I like this a lot as well. Not sure a 10 second bonus is worth the penalties you listed, but that's beside the point, the idea is great.

[Embolism]

I love it!

We can also have hullmods that increase the effectiveness of these. Heck, maybe even print a ship or two that exist purely as support platforms.

If balance necessitates, we can lock these behind player skills, so that's interesting too.


I will say though, I still don't necessarily like the idea of ships being fully effective sitting completely off in a corner somewhere. Maybe stick a range limit on these abilities? That might be too complicated so idk.... Otherwise I feel we need to somehow make civilian ships less effective than military ships in that regard.

Could make it so that the ship going mainframe needs to be sitting on a node: jammer gives EW, buoy gives Nav, and command nodes give both.

[AxleMC131]

Could make it so that the ship going mainframe needs to be sitting on a node: jammer gives EW, buoy gives Nav, and command nodes give both.

This idea speaks volumes to me. 

[nomadic_leader]

Gothars the idea of making "hacking warfare" a bigger part of science fiction battle  is a good one.

But using command orders to arbitrary change a bunch of existing ship stats with the press of a button and a bunch of handwaving without real logic besides the need for balance is more confusing and uninteresting than it needs to be-- there's already too much of that already.

Why not just have more dedicated electronic warfare ships via hullmods/shipsystems that do this sort of stuff? The more defensive ones could boost sensor ranges, missile guidance, nebular navigation, etc etc.

The more offensive ones could have ship systems that disable all enemy missile guidance in a radius, cause enemy turrets to fire at friendly ships, causes drones to bash into each other, temporarily mess with ships in other ways, etc etc.

They'd all be weakish and vulnerable.

It would add a lot of interesting new tactical depth to combat as you say. The de rigeuer response on these forums to any suggestion of the kind is a chorus of poeple saying "but the ai will find it too difficult!" Who cares? Let's find some way around that. Give the AI some routines to use it. I'm tired of combat being bland to preserve some kind of perfect balance with the AI. Let's have more wackiness.

I even think it would be funny to have some 'hacking virus' shipsystem or drone or missile or whatever, that when it penetrates enemy shields causes some unpredictable effect, like shutting down only one PD  turret, causing the ship to turn circles, or in rare cases the entire reactor goes critical.

[Gothars]

Why not just have more dedicated electronic warfare ships via hullmods/shipsystems that do this sort of stuff?

Because making decisions during combat instead of before is more interesting, at least to me. EW is already implemented as a passive hands-off mechanic, these ideas are about making it more active.

[nomadic_leader]

Why not just have more dedicated electronic warfare ships via hullmods/shipsystems that do this sort of stuff?

Because making decisions during combat instead of before is more interesting, at least to me. EW is already implemented as a passive hands-off mechanic, these ideas are about making it more active.

I agree with the sentiment, because EW should be less passive, and there should be more tactical decisions during combat. but is giving every ship the new capabilities interesting? It still feels too unreal: you click a button and a bunch of stats change. Like really, how can it make every other ship go so much faster?? handwave!

Also it doesn't look interesting. When an enemy is doing this against me, how do I know which ship is mainframe? Another tiny UI indicator like the peak performance timer I never notice? Wouldn't it be a lot more immediate and fun to see an enemy AWACS ship with a honking big radar dish and be like "AH HA! That ship! Get him!" to your fighters?

The emphasis in starsector is big on pre-engagement planning and less on micromanaging during battle, so that is a basis for dedicated EW ships. But I also  want EW I can really see and feel being used for and against me; not just the words "+3% speed increase" in the sidebar.Dedicated EW ships with shipsystems/hullmods that have a more visible, visceral, offensive effect in combat will help EW seem less hands off.

Then desired tactical depth could come from where you place these dedicated ships (just beyond main action, hidden in a corner etc) and whether you choose to engage/counter/ignore enemy EW ships.

And finally I think the emphasis should be on buffs and stat changes that actually make sense, are actaully credible, and really fun-- like sensor range, missile guidance, turret telemetry, disabling enemy systems, sabotage, hacking stuff, etc etc. Not these "ehh, if you say so" buffs like % speed and weapon range increases. I mean really the ship has its own engines, a torpedo has its own propellant, and that's the end of the story. And besides, those kind of buffs aren't even that interesting or fun.

We should all reread our Iain M Banks ship combat scenes to get some ideas.

[Gothars]

Like really, how can it make every other ship go so much faster?? handwave!

But that's nothing new about these ideas, that is the very basis of EW/CM.

When an enemy is doing this against me, how do I know which ship is mainframe?

Well, if you see a very slow ships that keeps out of combat, that would be a start. But an UI indicator on the ship wouldn't hurt either. On the other hand, identifying/hiding EW ships could be a fun part of the challenge.

But I also  want EW I can really see and feel being used for and against me; not just the words "+3% speed increase" in the sidebar.

 It's in the nature of Electronic Warfare to be invisible. But I would also love a much better presentation there, something like a dedicated UI element on the command screen with both fleet's EW-ratings pushing agaisnt each other.

You know there is a already an EW ship with the Omen, right? Some more couldn't hurt, though.

[Pushover]

I feel like CR is something that could get affected by EW. Have enough EW and the enemies start having malfunctions with their systems. High EW could also reduce peak performance time and/or CR degradation.

[intrinsic_parity]

Could make it so that the ship going mainframe needs to be sitting on a node: jammer gives EW, buoy gives Nav, and command nodes give both.

I think this idea satisfies both sides of the argument, EW and NAV can be hull mods but you have to also make decisions in combat tog get full use out of them. Maybe EW and Nav ships give small boost but if you have them at a Nav/sensor buoy, they give a much larger boost.

[Deshara]

Like really, how can it make every other ship go so much faster?? handwave!

But that's nothing new about these ideas, that is the very basis of EW/CM.

When an enemy is doing this against me, how do I know which ship is mainframe?

Well, if you see a very slow ships that keeps out of combat, that would be a start. But an UI indicator on the ship wouldn't hurt either. On the other hand, identifying/hiding EW ships could be a fun part of the challenge.

1) You aren't speeding up your own ships, you're slowing down enemy ships by jamming their systems electronically, and relatively speaking this is the functional equivalent of speeding up your ships (which is much more satisfying to experience than being slowed)
2) ships that are doing this A) become visible from anywhere on the map, and B) run down CR as if they were engaged. So a frigate could do this, but can't do it for the duration of an entire battle if they're up against a fleet fielding non-frigates. And also gives some interplay between other hullmods and the mainframe useage: SO would be incredibly useful for a mainframe ship, making it all but uncatchable but the SO means it's a temporary de-buff as it can't do it for long, and can't defend itself from kiting if caught, whereas a ship could harden its subsystems as a declaration of their intent to make this a thing that the enemy will have to overcome, at the expense of not having the flux/speed boost of SO making it easier to catch and destroy if caught, OR a ship with both SO and hardened systems, using up most of the ship's OP just in making its mainframe more useable and therefor making it nearly unable to defend itself if caught, but hard to catch and hard to wait out, making it an objective for an enemy fleet to field fast attack ships to single it out and maneuver their fleet specifically to screen their strike interceptors through the enemy front in order to catch & smash their mainframe.

[Warhunterpro]

this is a bit different from where the topic is going but make the EW affect accuracy and not range? for example when affected by EW all your weapons suffer an accuracy penalty causing them to miss there shots more often instead of just reducing their range.

(the accuracy penalty is for all weapons including those with perfect accuracy as to simulate your ships firing at where they think the target is but in reality the ship is to the side of where the shot went)
through not sure if this will work with continuous beams.

[Pushover]

this is a bit different from where the topic is going but make the EW affect accuracy and not range? for example when affected by EW all your weapons suffer an accuracy penalty causing them to miss there shots more often instead of just reducing their range.

(the accuracy penalty is for all weapons including those with perfect accuracy as to simulate your ships firing at where they think the target is but in reality the ship is to the side of where the shot went)
through not sure if this will work with continuous beams.

The problem is that accuracy is rarely actually an issue, except for point defense and extremely long range inaccurate weapons. Unless you get to mind-boggling levels of inaccuracy (look at this shot leave the barrel at 45 degrees!) you will still hit ~95% of the shots you aimed compared to if you didn't have an accuracy decrease.

[Warhunterpro]

i guess its just me being annoyed by inaccurate weapons like the heavy autocannon. through i do mean the weapons start with the inaccuracy debuff as if they had a poor accuracy stat and had been firing for a few seconds to get the spread as it's best accuracy. so with EW the heavy autocannon first few shots at best accuracy will have the same accuracy as if it had been normally shooting constantly for a few seconds