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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: A Tale of Two Tech Levels (05/28/21)

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Author Topic: Salvage & Recovery takes time  (Read 14618 times)

K-64

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2017, 03:32:14 AM »

There's literally no point in having salvaging take time though. I dunno about you, but sitting for a while doing nothing because some arbitrary system says I have to for "muh realisms" doesn't sound like a fun time. Hell, even with S-Burn, just getting to other systems can take an awkward amount of time, even with acceleration (yes, there's a risk of being intercepted, but let's face it, it's minute). Not sure about anyone else, but I at least play the game for entertainment purposes, and having lots of empty time of waiting on nothing doesn't constitute as entertaining for me.

Also what's with the hostility? It's a singleplayer(!) game about 2D spaceships. Personal attacks over it seem extremely petty to be honest.
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Destructively Phased

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2017, 03:59:01 AM »

This would just make some of the gameplay so terrible though. You stumble upon a group of derelict ships in a far flung system... and spend the next 5 minutes watching progress bars tick up before you get 30 supplies and 60 metal... I would just not bother to salvage things any more. It's already a part of the game that's kinda tedious, clicking on things one by one and confirming and stuff, and then you add time delays. It would just make uninteresting things more uninteresting.

I guess maybe a middle ground would be salvage time being related to size of object so small ships are instant but large ships take a bit of time, that way if it takes a while, you at least know you might be getting something good. I still feel like it would break up the flow of the gameplay way more than it would provide any benefit.

What a drama queen.

It only takes several seconds for a day to pass in Starsector.

Clicking on things? Yea, I know. Horrible. I don't want to have to click. At all. On anything. Better yet, I don't want to press keys on my keyboard repeatedly. So dull. Best make the game play itself and I'll just watch.

It's a valid point. In abandoned or Remnant systems you can often find 20 or so derelict ships either floating out there in a group or orbiting a gate. 20 days to salvage the whole group is tedious, especially when you have to click "go", wait, then get choose what you want before you can move onto the next. It'd serve no purpose when there's no immediate threat.
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RawCode

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2017, 05:19:37 AM »

this is not mmo time sink, nothing should take time at all, traveling to fridge systems also should be instant for player.

it can take ingame time, but not player's time.
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TrashMan

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2017, 06:13:34 AM »

this is not mmo time sink, nothing should take time at all, traveling to fridge systems also should be instant for player.

it can take ingame time, but not player's time.

If you're not willing to devote time to a game, you don't deserve to play it.
If you consider 5 seconds too much, you are spoiled brats.

The only other way to deal with this that would be acceptable is for the salvaging to be instant, but the game forwards time by 24 hours and takes into account if there are other fleets in the system see if they can detect and attack.
However, that is inorganic as hell and relies on a dice roll
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K-64

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2017, 06:23:50 AM »

"Dont deserve to play it" what? Games are something that you play for fun. They aren't a rank, or a badge of honour. You don't need to "prove" yourself to anyone if you want to play a game.
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RawCode

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 07:12:59 AM »

this is not mmo time sink, nothing should take time at all, traveling to fridge systems also should be instant for player.

it can take ingame time, but not player's time.

If you're not willing to devote time to a game, you don't deserve to play it.
If you consider 5 seconds too much, you are spoiled brats.

The only other way to deal with this that would be acceptable is for the salvaging to be instant, but the game forwards time by 24 hours and takes into account if there are other fleets in the system see if they can detect and attack.
However, that is inorganic as hell and relies on a dice roll

devote time to staring into display doing nothing?
are you kidding or -stu- kidding?

probably i should implement mod that delay your every ingame action by 5 seconds, iam sure you will enjoy it and this is exactly mod you deserve.
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Gothars

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2017, 07:16:00 AM »

If you're not willing to devote time to a game, you don't deserve to play it.
If you consider 5 seconds too much, you are spoiled brats.

I warned you about keeping the tone civil. You've got a PM.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:26:39 AM by Gothars »
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Morbo513

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2017, 08:01:33 AM »

It'd serve no purpose when there's no immediate threat.
As time passes in SS, different things are happening. In all cases, you're passively consuming supplies. Furthermore, bounties you might've wanted to go after might expire, commodity prices might change drastically in the system you planned to return to; if we're talking Nexerelin style features (Which imo, belong in the vanilla game; maybe this suggestion would be more appropriate as part of it though), your favoured faction might've lost some territory, your favourite markets destabilised. Maybe a scavenger fleet turns up in the system and contests the salvage you're after.
As for time vs reward, the negative of this could be mitigated with something similar to the preliminary survey. You hit an ability, all nearby derelicts will now display what type of ship they are, whether they're able to be restored, and something vaguely indicating the possible gains. Without that ability, you'd be able to establish these factors quickly per-derelict/debris field before committing time to the salvage operation its self. This would allow and encourage you to prioritise which derelicts you investigate first.
The consequence is, you're forced to prioritise what you go for. Is it worth the effort for example to scour a wrecked Kite that probably isn't carrying anything interesting? The answer to that question will change depending on what stage of the game you're at. Right now, there's no reason not to check every derelict and salvage every debris field you come across, unless it's in hyperspace and you don't have the fuel to travel between them (Which is an edge case in my experience).
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2017, 09:12:44 AM »

I agree with everything trashman says more or less (but I distance myself from the uncivil tone; don't get yourself banned man).

It's rather absurd, this desire for games to be like one of those lab experiments where they have rats press a button to get heroin instantly; not all players want it to be all instant gratification; there should be waiting and challenge too. That other type of game is for wasting time on your phone while you wait for the bus. It's like there's some fundamental divide about two different purposes people play games for (heroin or challenge) and the designer tries to keep pandering to both.

Sneaking around and trying to plant the comm sniffer without getting caught is FUN. Clicking the salvage ability could make a little progress bar start like the comm relay. At the end of the progress bar, you get the normal salvage dialogue. Before you're salvaging a ship it should still 'belong' to its faction, and if an uptight faction catches you salving one of their ships, their might be legal consequences (depending on the faction)

With planetary surveys, maybe rather than a progress bar it should just increment the campaign a day or two while you're landed/in orbit.

I also think this should happen whenever you land at a planet and do something like trade, accept a mission, refit, etc. Sometimes you also just need to lay low for a while when you land at a planet, and wait for the fleets around that planet to go away.

But of course, starsector doesn't have a mechanic for this. It is something so basic, (the idea that doing things takes time), but after 5 years the game doesn't have it. This can be a little frustrating about starsector development; that it still doesn't have some of this basic stuff, yet new mechanics keep getting added before existing ones are solid and fully realized.

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Morbo513

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2017, 09:30:12 AM »

Before you're salvaging a ship it should still 'belong' to its faction, and if an uptight faction catches you salving one of their ships, their might be legal consequences (depending on the faction)

Now this I'd like to see, the thought crossed my mind then disappeared completely. Some factions could have a policy that any wreckage in their systems/vicinity of their markets becomes their property (This'd be befitting of the Hegemony; since they're enforcing martial law, they'd want to do what they can to prevent anyone not explicitly aligned them becoming better equipped - not to mention feeding their own war machine. Tri-Tac could be similarly protective over wrecks that belonged to them due to their advanced technology, and not wanting to lose that edge), some could be very liberal, and individual fleets that have generated derelicts/salvage through their own losses or those of enemies they just fought may want to claim them. Rather than the player simply being able to camp battles between other fleets and scrounge the goodies that drop out, or go around salvaging every wreck they see, they'd have to be conscious of who might object to the act, and the consequences - Confiscation of the ship/salvage in question and maybe a fine, outright attacking (Scav fleets, pirates), etc. That act taking time gives those who might have conflicting interests in the matter a greater opportunity to catch you in the act.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2017, 09:58:43 AM »

Yea, I know this may not have been an intended focus of the game but between the terrain types and the sensor mechanics, starsector has evolved really fun "sneaking around" gameplay like those metal gear solid or thief games. I'm all for introducing more opportunities to use it. I like the idea of being able to get away with anything as long as a fleet of that faction doesn't see you doing it.

Morbo, your ideas seem credible. I also imagined the stuffy factions being really uptight about salvage like the hegemony (think the first episode of firefly) whereas pirates simply wouldn't care.

There would still be some random spawning "true" derelicts that didn't belong to anyone of course because they've been written off as a loss with the insurance company (do they still have Lloyd's of London in the sector??)
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2017, 06:47:15 PM »

I didn't mean to imply that things taking time is bad. I have just found that 90% of salvage is like 3 supplies and 4 fuel, so it is super obnoxious to have to wait to get very little, its already barely worth picking up. I think some of the disconnect here is exploration vs combat. I spend most of my time exploring, so a lot of my salvaging is small change derelicts and random debris fields and the aftermath of occasional bounty fights and such. Perhaps if you are in a civilized system, the salvage is a lot more substantial and there are many more fleets around to the point where this might make sense. I still think that making salvaging take a significant amount of time would make some parts of the game really boring. It already takes time to do the action, and in my experience, the rewards are minimal.
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Morbo513

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2017, 06:57:20 PM »

I didn't mean to imply that things taking time is bad. I have just found that 90% of salvage is like 3 supplies and 4 fuel, so it is super obnoxious to have to wait to get very little, its already barely worth picking up. I think some of the disconnect here is exploration vs combat. I spend most of my time exploring, so a lot of my salvaging is small change derelicts and random debris fields and the aftermath of occasional bounty fights and such. Perhaps if you are in a civilized system, the salvage is a lot more substantial and there are many more fleets around to the point where this might make sense. I still think that making salvaging take a significant amount of time would make some parts of the game really boring. It already takes time to do the action, and in my experience, the rewards are minimal.
That's the point. The game is otherwise letting you have each and every one of those small handfuls of fuel and supplies at zero risk and zero consequence, beyond the dice-roll determined loss of crew/machinery, and the slight course alteration to pick up the ones you stumble into. Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them (And if it's a higher-tier, restorable derelict, even more so). Late game, they're not worth the effort with or without the action to salvage them taking time. Having a system as I described above for a preliminary assessment of what might be gained from a given derelict or debris field will help players determine what is and what isn't worth that time.

As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:03:56 PM by Morbo513 »
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BillyRueben

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2017, 07:19:43 PM »

Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them...

The reason those tiny salvage operations exist is to make the early game a little more forgiving. Making those small drops riskier is counter-productive.

As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.

I'm all for more risk when doing salvage, but why should I have to sit there for an extra 40 seconds? Have some sort of text pop up and say "Oh no! Pirates were hiding nearby and now you have to fight or flee!" Don't make me just sit there for a minute and watch a progress bar. If there is going to be risk, make it a fun risk.

It's rather absurd, this desire for games to be like one of those lab experiments where they have rats press a button to get heroin instantly; not all players want it to be all instant gratification; there should be waiting and challenge too.

Again, all for more challenge. No one here is asking for the game to get easier. It's just that no one wants the game to start forcing you to sit there with your thumb up your a$$ while nothing happens for 30 seconds. No fun, no risk, just boredom.
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K-64

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2017, 07:33:42 PM »

Have some sort of text pop up and say "Oh no! Pirates were hiding nearby and now you have to fight or flee!"

That also has the added bonus of actually being there. There's at least two salvage events that have that exact scenario occur. Now granted one still lets you perform the salvage operation before they ride in to potentially ruin your day, but still.
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