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Author Topic: How can I command fighers?  (Read 27357 times)

StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2017, 01:52:30 PM »




You should get 4 seperate crafts to control the same way you can control the fire arcs of your weapons.



Wut?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 01:58:55 PM by StarGibbon »
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2017, 05:35:35 PM »

Wut?
Think he means weapon groups, but in this case Fighter groups.
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Histidine

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2017, 05:51:54 PM »

Removing additional option from the game is never a step in a design.
As a generalized statement, this is unequivocally false. Options impose costs on both developer to add and keep around, and are subject to cost-benefit considerations like everything else.

Concrete examples from previous SS versions:
- Old boarding: hard dock vs. launch from distance (and pretty sliders to decide how many marines/crew to send in)
- Old skill system (you have the option of stopping before you reach a perk/hullmod level; especially great for officers)
- Attack/defend/retreat stances during fleet encounters

Now specific fighter commands has a better "business case" than any of the aforementioned things, but the point is demonstrated: "more options" is not an automatic "more better".
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:53:26 PM by Histidine »
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2017, 06:00:26 PM »

Wut?
Think he means weapon groups, but in this case Fighter groups.

Ah. Well, that's not analogous, then. Fighters are autonomous weapons like missiles. Should we have to micromanage missles too? They dont always go exactly where we want, after all. Beam turrets dont always aim at exactly the ship we want.  It's important to stop thinking of fighters as separate craft. They're sold in the weapons menu, not the ship menu.

The soon to be fixed behavioral bug aside, the elimination for the *necessity* of specific tactical commands in a non tactical focused game should not be seen as a "dumbing down" of the game. Quite the opposite. Each of those tactical commands represents a weakness in decision making ability of the AI that the human has to manually compensate for.  If they can be eliminated because the AI makes good enough decisions *most of the time* to be successful without the crutch of micromanagement, it represents an increase in intelligence of the AI and design. If the fighters can be made to reliably target the the target of the cruiser, without the cruiser subjecting itself to unreasonable danger, that should be good enough to eliminate the need for specific fighter commands.

The necessity for babysitting fighters beyond that would frankly be unwelcome, and some of the uses for micromanagement I've heard described here--for instance using direct micro control to bypass flak weapons--sounds like an exploit.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 07:38:18 PM by StarGibbon »
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2017, 06:06:48 PM »

Now specific fighter commands has a better "business case" than any of the aforementioned things, but the point is demonstrated: "more options" is not an automatic "more better".
This.
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miljan

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2017, 10:29:58 AM »

Wut?
Think he means weapon groups, but in this case Fighter groups.

Ah. Well, that's not analogous, then. Fighters are autonomous weapons like missiles. Should we have to micromanage missles too? They dont always go exactly where we want, after all. Beam turrets dont always aim at exactly the ship we want.  It's important to stop thinking of fighters as separate craft. They're sold in the weapons menu, not the ship menu.

The soon to be fixed behavioral bug aside, the elimination for the *necessity* of specific tactical commands in a non tactical focused game should not be seen as a "dumbing down" of the game. Quite the opposite. Each of those tactical commands represents a weakness in decision making ability of the AI that the human has to manually compensate for.  If they can be eliminated because the AI makes good enough decisions *most of the time* to be successful without the crutch of micromanagement, it represents an increase in intelligence of the AI and design. If the fighters can be made to reliably target the the target of the cruiser, without the cruiser subjecting itself to unreasonable danger, that should be good enough to eliminate the need for specific fighter commands.

The necessity for babysitting fighters beyond that would frankly be unwelcome, and some of the uses for micromanagement I've heard described here--for instance using direct micro control to bypass flak weapons--sounds like an exploit.

The thing is we cant even control fighters like missles or other weapons. You cant aim individual fighters where and when to fight.
Removing this  control as a option from the game is the most simple example of dumbing down the game as it removes one additional option and play style from the game and doesnt put anything in its place that was not already there. It can never be "Quite the opposite" because the alternative of leaving AI play it for you was always there, no matter is controlling fighter in the game or not. If you do not like micromanagement of your fighters no one is forcing you to play it and you can just ignore those options that always where there, but if I want, and if I have fun playing it that way its not a option anymore as it was removed from the game and nothing was made to replace it.

Also using tactics and maneuvers to  bypass flak can never be a exploit but smart use of fighters and tactics, the same way flanking with a ship can not be consider a exploit, because, i mean.. the whole game is a exploit than  :D.
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2017, 02:03:23 PM »



The thing is we cant even control fighters like missles or other weapons. You cant aim individual fighters where and when to fight.

Cant aim turrets or guided  missles either, except in the most general sense. These weapons make their own decisions based on your relative positioning to the enemy and which targets are closer, same as fighters. There's room to fine tune this with fighters, but they shouldn't be considered separate craft.

I ask again, which storefront are fighters sold in? They aren't ships and shouldn't be treated as such.


If you do not like micromanagement of your fighters no one is forcing you to play it and you can just ignore those options that always where there, but if I want, and if I have fun playing it that way its not a option anymore as it was removed from the game and nothing was made to replace it.

Ah, to a certain extent they're mutually exclusive, though.  I don't want to speak for Alex, but in terms of observing the game it seems clear the game wants to keep the necessity of that layer to a minimum. If carriers and fighters can perform well enough most of the time without it, then theres no need for micro controls.  If micro controls are still *needed* enough to justify a tactical layer function for them to correct a meaningful weakness in fighter behavior, then babysitting fighters will still be necessary, and Ill have to keep pausing my game to keep track of what they're doing.



Also using tactics and maneuvers to  bypass flak can never be a exploit but smart use of fighters and tactics, the same way flanking with a ship can not be consider a exploit, because, i mean.. the whole game is a exploit than  :D.

Sure it is. How "smart" do you have to be to use a cheat against the AI, that the AI isnt capable of using itself?

The opposing ship has paid its loadout points for strong PD capability. It *should* be resistant to fighters.  You either make a similar investment in  anti-PD fighters (broadswords, etc), or a decision on the deployment screen to deploy other ships capable of taking that target down, then use those ships to attack that target during battle. Using Micro controls that the* AI cant use*, in order to allow a ship that shouldn't be able to overcome another to bypass the decision making on the loadout and deployment screens, is bypassing the design.

You can tell where the game wants the most decision making to be done, by how developed those portions are.  Tons of decisions on the refit page. Lots of strategy derived from player skill in the real time combat phase. Very few, and only the most necessary options on the tactical layer.  It's not where the game wants you making most of your decisions.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 02:24:03 PM by StarGibbon »
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Allectus

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2017, 03:13:43 PM »

The opposing ship has paid its loadout points for strong PD capability. It *should* be resistant to fighters.  You either make a similar investment in  anti-PD fighters (broadswords, etc), or a decision on the deployment screen to deploy other ships capable of taking that target down, then use those ships to attack that target during battle. Using Micro controls that the* AI cant use*, in order to allow a ship that shouldn't be able to overcome another to bypass the decision making on the loadout and deployment screens, is bypassing the design.

I disagree wholeheartedly.  If the loadout screen is the be-all end-all why do we even have tactical combat?  Everything should be auto resolved in that world.  I think you're clearly wrong on this point; the purpose of the tactical combat is so you can use skill to overcome deficiencies in the matchups.
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2017, 03:17:42 PM »


I disagree wholeheartedly.  If the loadout screen is the be-all end-all why do we even have tactical combat?  Everything should be auto resolved in that world.  I think you're clearly wrong on this point; the purpose of the tactical combat is so you can use skill to overcome deficiencies in the matchups.

You're cherry-picking:


You can tell where the game wants the most decision making to be done, by how developed those portions are.  Tons of decisions on the refit page. Lots of strategy derived from player skill in the real time combat phase. Very few, and only the most necessary options on the tactical layer.  It's not where the game wants you making most of your decisions.

And we dont have tactical combat. We have thrilling real time combat with a light tactical layer to address the most necessary commands. Speaking as a fan of tactical combat games, it's not remotely a tactical combat game, and wouldnt be if you even doubled the complexity of the current tactical layer.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 03:22:34 PM by StarGibbon »
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Allectus

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2017, 03:22:24 PM »

You realize that the game is still in development and that we had all of these tactical options before, right?  The argument about level of development absolutely doesn't hold water in this case.  The entire squadron system was changed in this patch with the express purpose of making carrier flagships viable, just because a feature hasn't made it into a complete refactoring doesn't necessarily mean it's not desired; just that it was not the absolute highest priority.
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2017, 03:24:14 PM »

just because a feature hasn't made it into a complete refactoring doesn't necessarily mean it's not desired; just that it was not the absolute highest priority.

That's actually exactly my reading on the situation from observing the game and things Alex has said. I could be wrong.  I'm sure it will sort itself out.
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miljan

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2017, 10:12:37 AM »



The thing is we cant even control fighters like missles or other weapons. You cant aim individual fighters where and when to fight.

Cant aim turrets or guided  missles either, except in the most general sense. These weapons make their own decisions based on your relative positioning to the enemy and which targets are closer, same as fighters. There's room to fine tune this with fighters, but they shouldn't be considered separate craft.

I ask again, which storefront are fighters sold in? They aren't ships and shouldn't be treated as such.
Yes, you can aim turets and guided missles manually. They can be consider seperated crarft as they where before with some fine tuning, nothing wrong with that. What storefront its sold on doesnt matter at all.


If you do not like micromanagement of your fighters no one is forcing you to play it and you can just ignore those options that always where there, but if I want, and if I have fun playing it that way its not a option anymore as it was removed from the game and nothing was made to replace it.

Ah, to a certain extent they're mutually exclusive, though.  I don't want to speak for Alex, but in terms of observing the game it seems clear the game wants to keep the necessity of that layer to a minimum. If carriers and fighters can perform well enough most of the time without it, then theres no need for micro controls.  If micro controls are still *needed* enough to justify a tactical layer function for them to correct a meaningful weakness in fighter behavior, then babysitting fighters will still be necessary, and Ill have to keep pausing my game to keep track of what they're doing.

They are not  mutually exclusive. In fact putting tactice control behind new skills fix this suoperficual problem that you have, making a play style of mroe micro intensvie battles wiht your fighters possible and not removing it totaly.


Also using tactics and maneuvers to  bypass flak can never be a exploit but smart use of fighters and tactics, the same way flanking with a ship can not be consider a exploit, because, i mean.. the whole game is a exploit than  :D.

Sure it is. How "smart" do you have to be to use a cheat against the AI, that the AI isnt capable of using itself?

The opposing ship has paid its loadout points for strong PD capability. It *should* be resistant to fighters.  You either make a similar investment in  anti-PD fighters (broadswords, etc), or a decision on the deployment screen to deploy other ships capable of taking that target down, then use those ships to attack that target during battle. Using Micro controls that the* AI cant use*, in order to allow a ship that shouldn't be able to overcome another to bypass the decision making on the loadout and deployment screens, is bypassing the design.

You can tell where the game wants the most decision making to be done, by how developed those portions are.  Tons of decisions on the refit page. Lots of strategy derived from player skill in the real time combat phase. Very few, and only the most necessary options on the tactical layer.  It's not where the game wants you making most of your decisions.
[/quote]

Ai is not cable of a lot o things.  Blaming bad Ai and comparing it to cheating because we play better than him is I dont know how to say it, just wrong. In fact Ai should be programed to do the same things we do as best as possible.

The game is not telling you anything, it had a very detail tactical control of fighters before and it was dumbed down, and whole playstyle was almost removed, and I will not sit and pretend its something positive and defend bad decisions from the developer of the game. He can want to make maybe a text adventure and remove all the features of fighting, its his game and in the end he will do what he wants but be sure I will not be sitting here and defending things that I dont like.  Removing/dumbing down one play style is a bad thing for the game and for the diversity of options it offers and in the end for his customers like me that dont like it.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:14:09 AM by miljan »
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2017, 03:26:12 PM »

Yes, you can aim turets and guided missles manually.

Ok, buddy.

It's clear we cant engage on this because we have differing interpretations of reality, but the core issue of why its bad to let the player use tactical fighter control to gain an advantage on the AI, is because the AI can't use it against the player. And before you start, I don't mean in the same way that the player will always be a better pilot than the AI, or be able to make better decisions. The AI can be made to perform *well enough* in those cases to provide a reasonable challenge for the player, when coupled with force strength adjustments.  I mean the AI has no chance of exploiting the micromanagement to intelligently bypass your flak cannons, even if Alex could get them to use it.  The road to that place is longer by far than the road to fine tuning where we are now.

It's the same problem currently with sustained burn...a wonderful feature from a player perspective, but it breaks the game because the AI can't use it, and so the AI is no longer playing the same game as the player on the campaign map. I find it interesting that the couple people here arguing for a more "tactical" game, are in fact arguing for a less tactical game overall by the inclusion of features your opponent cant be expected to effectively use against them. By limiting both sides to a game which both can play to a reasonable degree, you have a much better game overall.  I'm sorry if it isn't exactly the game you want it to be, but that will be true for us all in some aspect or another.
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Kaucukovnik

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2017, 01:05:52 AM »

The game doesn't have solid mechanics for AI-assisted action combat - wingmen, quick orders and stances. Instead it has a very good tactical UI. Please don't gut the latter before bringing in some shape of the former.

I think I can sometimes see the intent behind the combat. A few times I managed to lead an assault, my fleet following on its own and overwhelming the enemy. Usually they barely care. Sometimes AI controlled fighters just swarm a ship and utterly destroy it, at other times they repeatedly get shot wing after wing and don't accomplish anything.
The combat is spectacular when working right and infuriating when not.
It doesn't help that the enemy would be happy to kite you for the entirety of every battle, then go "Uhh...getting loww on CR...bye!" The AI has abundance of patience and it seems to be learning to use it. :( And they don't care about supplies after all, do they?
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Serenitis

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2017, 12:56:18 AM »

For the most part the AI handles fighters fairly well, but there have been several instances where I have wanted to tell my fighters "don't do this, do that instead" but I have been unable to do so. In previous versions I could tell a group of fighters to do what I wanted them to do.
What I would like to see re: fighter controls in lieu of ordering them like ships (which I believe won't be reappearing).

Three command buttons on the <tab> interface to dictate fleet wide behaviour of fighters. All mutually exclusive.
Free Assignment
Let the AI decide how to use fighters as it does now. This would be the default setting.
Prioritise Defence
All fighters will be assigned to provide point defence cover to as many ships as they can, and will stay with thier assigned ship until it is either disabled or moves far enough away from the enemy to be considered out of immediate danger.
Bombers would still be free to attack ships, but would do so much less aggressively and prefer to loiter inside the front line fighter screen and strike at nearby targets of opportunity.
Prioritise Attack
All fighters will be assigned to attack nearby targets, prefering to concentrate on one target at a time.

This could have a command point cost and/or a cooldown period if required.
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