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Author Topic: How can I command fighers?  (Read 27345 times)

Alex

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2017, 02:02:06 PM »

... and not for them to be *** because of ...

(Language, please.)
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2017, 02:15:12 PM »



Bad Ai is when computer does random crap when playing and when I cannot guide him to do what I want. If i can play fleet level tactical sim with other ships, I expect to have same control and AI of carriers, and not for them to be *** because of some balance thing. As said bad AI should be never considered as a balance thing in games like this. And no , AI of carriers is not good in any way or form. Or better said AI of fighters


You *do* have the same level of control over carriers as other ships. You can issue them the exact same commands, and they will obey them. Probably not a good idea to order a ship with weaker weapons/armor to directly attack a more powerful one on its own.

 What you *dont* have is micro control over their fighters, because Alex apparently wants them to be more of a Damage over Time Aura now to offset their power, more than discrete craft of their own to command separately. Why should you get 4 separate craft to control for the price of one?

As for Carriers being an offensive term for someone with a developmental disability, my experience and yours differs wildly. I just played an all carrier game with "cautious" or "steady" officers in my carriers, escorted when necessary, and they never did what you describe. They were mostly hassle free hanging back out of trouble, and they kicked all kinds of ass. Fighters no longer *need* micromanagement to be effective, and I rather think thats a step up in the design, rather than a dumbing down. I dont want to have to manage my fighter wings while Im concentrating on the action.

If you had problems with your carriers, you may need to examine your strategy for using them.
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 02:17:41 PM »


StarGibbon, I also agree with your view on carrier vulnerability, you might be interested in this discussion: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11477.msg206722#msg206722

Will do, thanks!
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Allectus

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 02:26:48 PM »

Carriers work just fine as long as you leave them alone.  The issue is why they work and how they break.  

They work so well right now because fighters are ridiculously powerful and the AI does not appropriately prioritize the carrier, so as long as the carrier doesn't do something foolish it's an inevitable death by a thousand papercuts.  I wouldn't call that the best outcome and I'd hope it gets addressed by making carriers more vulnerable and a high priority target, coupled (possibly) with a balance pass on fighters themselves and relevant skills.

Where it breaks is in two places.

1) if you do give them an order they will start doing foolish things, like charging into close range and get themselves killed, or out of effective positioning for rapid re-arm/re-launch, or any other number of things the player might like to avoid.  I believe this happens because you can't control their positioning and their targeting at the same time (because they have such a long effective range if you give a target they can move wherever, or if you give a movement target they can attack whatever--this is not true for shorter range ships where attacking is implicitly linked with positioning).

2) Because you can't give orders you've lost agency over them, which pretty heavily degrades the tactical side of the game for those of us who enjoy it.  Beyond that, it will be a very significant problem if fighters are ever toned down to the point that they don't just roflstomp everything by default, which is what's covering up a lot of sins right now.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 02:28:30 PM by Allectus »
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2017, 02:32:57 PM »


1) if you do give them an order they will start doing foolish things, like charging into close range and get themselves killed


Even with cautious officers?  I havent seen it.  BUT.  Carriers also tend to be pretty slow, so it's possible I just dont see their intent to suicide when Im off killing stuff with faster ships, and their fighters simply make short work of something before they get into trouble.

[edit]

2) Because you can't give orders you've lost agency over them, which pretty heavily degrades the tactical side of the game for those of us who enjoy it.  Beyond that, it will be a very significant problem if fighters are ever toned down to the point that they don't just roflstomp everything by default, which is what's covering up a lot of sins right now.


Well, as a tactical wargamer myself, Im sympathetic, but this game would have to be a *lot* more focused on the tactical side of things for me to even consider it a tactical game. It's never come close enough for me to really miss anything there. The design seems to be about getting players into the action with a minimum of fuss, and that seems fine to me as long as it's succeeding in that. I mostly think it is right now.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 02:36:43 PM by StarGibbon »
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Alex

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2017, 02:37:35 PM »

Just to chime in on this: there's a bug (fixed for 0.8.1a) that causes carriers that are given orders to abandon their normal carrier-like behavior, often resulting in suicidal charges. E.G. if you order an "assault" or "defend" on a point, and a combat carrier is assigned to it, it'll stop using nearby allies to hide behind and will act more or less like a warship.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2017, 02:40:01 PM »

2) Because you can't give orders you've lost agency over them, which pretty heavily degrades the tactical side of the game for those of us who enjoy it.  Beyond that, it will be a very significant problem if fighters are ever toned down to the point that they don't just roflstomp everything by default, which is what's covering up a lot of sins right now.
Just saying, what agency?  The tactical side of using fighters (in my mind) was always just to make a deathball out of them and roll around the map killing everything.  There was no tactical agency, not that I could find.  Now that fighters are linked to their carrier, fighters are both more independent and require much, much less babysitting for them to be effective.  I'm very happy with the current fighter changes, and I'd much rather they be kept this way.
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Allectus

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2017, 02:50:54 PM »

Just saying, what agency?  The tactical side of using fighters (in my mind) was always just to make a deathball out of them and roll around the map killing everything.  There was no tactical agency, not that I could find.  Now that fighters are linked to their carrier, fighters are both more independent and require much, much less babysitting for them to be effective.  I'm very happy with the current fighter changes, and I'd much rather they be kept this way.

I'm going to quote myself from two earlier threads just so I don't have to retype it all, please excuse the fact that the text in question doesn't EXACTLY respond to your question:

Regarding tactical options that have been lost:
Hmm. I think for carriers, a right-click on empty space ("rally task force") would more or less do the job - they may choose from a lot of targets, but they will tend to choose targets already under attack, which in most cases is going to be what you want  anyway.

Maybe. Maybe not.  Generally not given how I play, but I understand that's not the case for everyone. 

I use[d] carriers as a force multiplier/rapid reaction force, not just part of the brawling mass.  Previously I could split my forces to capture seperate points or scout out the enemy fleet and then rapidly reinforce where appropriate with fighters/bombers to let the forward element punch above their weight.  Now I don't get to choose where those reinforcements go if multiple engagements are occurring.  Similarly I may want to harry something in the backline (carrier/sniper/retreating ship/whatever) when my line ships are not in a position to engage; can't do that anymore without losing control of the position of the carrier, which has an unfortunate tendency of putting itself in some pretty dangerous scenarios.  Hell, maybe I want the carrier in direct combat in one fight while the fighters are assisting in another fight so that I can get flanks or flux pressure in both fights.  The flexibility of deployment is always what made carriers so special in my mind.

Being able to set at minimum both a carrier position and separate target are important for that flexibility. 

Being able to set the vector with a fighter rally command was what gave me the feeling of being a fleet commander with a battle plan, but there's always been an abstraction of command ability in this game that I've appreciated and I could accept losing that fine level of control.  Carriers without deployment flexibility just feel like super LRM boats to me though :(


Regarding the order of battle that was my general engagement paradigm previously vs now:

I used to issue a lot of orders before 0.8. Unfortunately 0.8 removed a LOT of orders and made it impossible to issue orders to fighters directly.  As a consequence it's impossible to assign a seperate position and target command to carriers so they get suicidal the moment you tell them to engage. IMHO, 0.8 has made the game much less tactical.

In 0.72:

  • Recon with interceptors to get the lay of the opposing fleet
  • Capture nearby points while waiting for intel
  • Rally a group somewhere between bulk of their forces and my back line to screen my carriers; just a delaying action.
  • Rally carriers behind escort group
  • Assault a mid point that is NOT the bulk of their forces; try to catch and eliminate one of their strike forces
  • Move my initial capture groups up as hunter/killer squads to capture lightly defended points, and take out stragglers/snipers/carriers. Support w/ fighter/bomber cover to let them punch above their weight (using fighter rally points to avoid flak).
  • Wheel my assault group into the flank of their main body while pushing up with my carrier escorts and coordinated bomber strikes
  • search and destroy to mop up
  • Throughout I may be reinforcing or assaulting different points where I feel it gives me an advantage


0.8: AI only flies in a deathball now and it can be very dangerous to break portions of your forces off with the carrier changes and lack of furtive [e.g. recon] commands. So it's much less interesting

  • Capture near points
  • Assign everything to escort me (no more recon command to get forward info, or easy ability to reinforce strike groups with fighters so lone frigates get toasted by fighters/assigning a carrier to defend makes the carrier suicidal....only option is to recon in force). Enemy fleet is likewise highly compressed
  • eliminate closest target
  • repeat

MUCH less satisfying in my experience.  I've actually regressed back to 0.72 for the time being.


It's always possible to just overwhelm your opponent utterly if you have a massive numbers or tech advantage.  For the sake of my personal enjoyment I regularly try to take on fleets much larger than mine, such that a deathball of fighters would mostly just leave me with a bunch of dead fighters (assuming 0.72 balancing rather than the current hotness they now represent).

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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2017, 02:53:42 PM »

Just to chime in on this: there's a bug (fixed for 0.8.1a) that causes carriers that are given orders to abandon their normal carrier-like behavior, often resulting in suicidal charges. E.G. if you order an "assault" or "defend" on a point, and a combat carrier is assigned to it, it'll stop using nearby allies to hide behind and will act more or less like a warship.

Sounds like Alex already addressed the issue at work here.
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Allectus

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2017, 02:58:07 PM »

Just to chime in on this: there's a bug (fixed for 0.8.1a) that causes carriers that are given orders to abandon their normal carrier-like behavior, often resulting in suicidal charges. E.G. if you order an "assault" or "defend" on a point, and a combat carrier is assigned to it, it'll stop using nearby allies to hide behind and will act more or less like a warship.

Sounds like Alex already addressed the issue at work here.

Welcome relief on that point, at least.  I'd still prefer finer control (as indicated in my wall of text just above your comment), but fixing this bug will definitely be a major improvement.
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StarGibbon

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2017, 03:05:13 PM »

Just to chime in on this: there's a bug (fixed for 0.8.1a) that causes carriers that are given orders to abandon their normal carrier-like behavior, often resulting in suicidal charges. E.G. if you order an "assault" or "defend" on a point, and a combat carrier is assigned to it, it'll stop using nearby allies to hide behind and will act more or less like a warship.

Sounds like Alex already addressed the issue at work here.

Welcome relief on that point, at least.  I'd still prefer finer control (as indicated in my wall of text just above your comment), but fixing this bug will definitely be a major improvement.

I should walk back some things that I said. I think I entrenched myself too firmly in response to miljan's overstatement of some issues.

I'm not *opposed* to finer tactical control in principle, as long as it isn't necessary to distract myself from the action by micromanaging swarms of fightercraft during an engagement. And I certainly don't blame you for trying to impose your preferences for the game on the developer (I've done the same thing in another thread on this page).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 03:15:02 PM by StarGibbon »
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2017, 03:26:58 PM »

@Allectus
Deploying fighters peacemeal isn't usually the best (or most effective) way of deploying them.  The more fighters there are, the more damage they can cause before being sent back to the carrier.  Besides, you never needed to use your interceptors to recon - the Sensor Arrays always gave you plenty of sight radius.  Furthermore, the disposition of enemy forces in a space game isn't all too important compared to the disposition of vehicle on land, as on land there are obstacles blocking maneuvering, sight lines, and terrain providing tactical advantages such as a defense on a hill or a reverse-slope defense.  None of those exist in Starsector - thusly, reconnaissance is nearly pointless, furthermore since you already know the exact fleet composition of the enemy before the battle even starts.  Furthermore, getting flanked in Starsector is not nearly as disastrous as getting flanked in real life (for example, putting flanking fire down a group of line infantry, called "raking the line" in the American Civil War, which could cause some serious casualties because it was harder to miss and a single bullet could strike multiple soldiers), as shields exist and give the ship in question enough time to GTFO and remake the battle line.  Hell, even in real life, reconnaissance is only useful on the largest tactical, moving onto strategic, levels.  Cavalry during the American Civil War were so valuable because they were the eyes and ears of the armies - they kept track of the enemy army, fed information quickly back to headquarters, and could fend off enemy cavalry trying to do the same thing to them.  But once the battle actually started, the cavalry were ditched - you already know where the enemy will be and can thus determine the place of battle.  Skirmishers were there to engage and keep in place the enemy.

Furthermore, carriers already attempt to keep behind friendly ships (or if they don't, Alex has already confirmed any situations as bugs), so there's another beautiful thing of simplicity.  Not everything has to be more complicated to be better.
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Allectus

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2017, 03:43:14 PM »

@stargibbon:

Yeah, I don't want the game to be wrecked for folks that just want to pew pew.  Similarly it was a gut punch when a previous tactical focus I enjoyed was cut.  I think there's room for both.

@Allectus
Deploying fighters peacemeal isn't usually the best (or most effective) way of deploying them.  The more fighters there are, the more damage they can cause before being sent back to the carrier.  Besides, you never needed to use your interceptors to recon - the Sensor Arrays always gave you plenty of sight radius.  Furthermore, the disposition of enemy forces in a space game isn't all too important compared to the disposition of vehicle on land, as on land there are obstacles blocking maneuvering, sight lines, and terrain providing tactical advantages such as a defense on a hill or a reverse-slope defense.  None of those exist in Starsector - thusly, reconnaissance is nearly pointless, furthermore since you already know the exact fleet composition of the enemy before the battle even starts.  Furthermore, getting flanked in Starsector is not nearly as disastrous as getting flanked in real life (for example, putting flanking fire down a group of line infantry, called "raking the line" in the American Civil War, which could cause some serious casualties because it was harder to miss and a single bullet could strike multiple soldiers), as shields exist and give the ship in question enough time to GTFO and remake the battle line.  Hell, even in real life, reconnaissance is only useful on the largest tactical, moving onto strategic, levels.  Cavalry during the American Civil War were so valuable because they were the eyes and ears of the armies - they kept track of the enemy army, fed information quickly back to headquarters, and could fend off enemy cavalry trying to do the same thing to them.  But once the battle actually started, the cavalry were ditched - you already know where the enemy will be and can thus determine the place of battle.  Skirmishers were there to engage and keep in place the enemy.

Furthermore, carriers already attempt to keep behind friendly ships (or if they don't, Alex has already confirmed any situations as bugs), so there's another beautiful thing of simplicity.  Not everything has to be more complicated to be better.

The purpose or recon in this context is to let me know how to allocate my forces efficiently.  Local superiority counts for a lot and info allows you to accomplish that; if I can get a job done with a single hound and a wing of talons (usually the ones doing the recce) then I have that much more to focus elsewhere.  Similarly if I just send a hound off into the black it's pretty unlikely I'll ever see it again...By far the most important reason to recce is to find their carriers as well as a safe path to them so I can dispatch them as efficiently and as quickly as possible.  Every second their carriers or LRM boats are up I'll take fire from fighters/missiles that shouldn't even exist.

Replace flanking with envelopment, if you like.  Especially important against factions that rely on directional shielding as it's infinitely more flux efficient to just not shoot the bloody shield.  For factions with very large arcs on their shield I'm much less concerned with that sort of positioning and it's mostly just about (again) attaining local superiority over.

Double down on everything if (as I often am) I'm attacking a larger fleet and I need to be very careful which points I attempt to capture to try to get enough points to bring in more ships.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2017, 04:20:35 PM »

Local Superiority can be already be accomplished by flying straight up with your entire force.  99% of the time the enemy fleet AI does just that.  Reconnaissance is against pretty pointless, as seems to be your main point about directing fighters.  Guderian's quote of "strike with a closed fist, not an open hand" applies well to pretty much everything.  Don't bother spreading out your forces when you can just deck them right there - that's worked very well for me in-game, even when outnumbered fairly heavily.

Also, as to your "find carriers with Hound" thing (in any game), just look where fighters go after they dropped their payload.  Follow the breadcrumb trail, don't waste resources scouting, as I said above scouting is pretty much pointless because you will more or less know exactly where enemy forces will be going.
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miljan

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Re: How can I command fighers?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2017, 11:10:18 AM »



Bad Ai is when computer does random crap when playing and when I cannot guide him to do what I want. If i can play fleet level tactical sim with other ships, I expect to have same control and AI of carriers, and not for them to be *** because of some balance thing. As said bad AI should be never considered as a balance thing in games like this. And no , AI of carriers is not good in any way or form. Or better said AI of fighters


You *do* have the same level of control over carriers as other ships. You can issue them the exact same commands, and they will obey them. Probably not a good idea to order a ship with weaker weapons/armor to directly attack a more powerful one on its own.

 What you *dont* have is micro control over their fighters, because Alex apparently wants them to be more of a Damage over Time Aura now to offset their power, more than discrete craft of their own to command separately. Why should you get 4 separate craft to control for the price of one?

As for Carriers being an offensive term for someone with a developmental disability, my experience and yours differs wildly. I just played an all carrier game with "cautious" or "steady" officers in my carriers, escorted when necessary, and they never did what you describe. They were mostly hassle free hanging back out of trouble, and they kicked all kinds of ass. Fighters no longer *need* micromanagement to be effective, and I rather think thats a step up in the design, rather than a dumbing down. I dont want to have to manage my fighter wings while Im concentrating on the action.

If you had problems with your carriers, you may need to examine your strategy for using them.

As said by alex the thing that happened is a bug that hopefully will get fixed that so often happens when playing with carriers all the time. You should get 4 seperate crafts to control the same way you can control the fire arcs of your weapons. In fact that there is really no good reason for removing the micro of fighters as a option. It can be tied to skill or some other way. Just a note i play only carriers fleets (only fighters and nothing else) this version. Removing features form the game like control of your fighters is dumbing down of that part of the game and forcing it on all players. Fighters need micro to be as effective as before the patch as their AI is not close to what is needed. Removing additional option from the game is never a step in a design. And having micro options will not force you to micro it in any way or form, if the Ai is good for you, but for people that its not, that option will always be helpful. But this additional options is a must for people like me.

No I dont need to examine strategy, i just need to see what is removed from the game to understand where the problem is.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 12:10:54 PM by miljan »
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