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[Baqar79]

I'm not a fan of the combat tree, as it's benefits mostly only apply to your current driven ship.  Other hired officers can easily get the same abilities as you, and so while this tree might be useful to your piloted ship, I found it preferable to invest my points in other abilities which would have an influence over the whole of the fleet.

Rather than buff the current combat tree, how about making the officers under our command, have their skill effectiveness depend on whether we have the same ability unlocked or not?

The penalty could be a simple -% modifier on the current officer's skill

For example my officer has Powergrid Modulation Level 2, but I only have Level 1 unlocked.  Assuming say a -50% reduction for skills I don't have.

Officer's current points in Powergrid Modulation (Level 2):

Before:
Level 1 - Flux +10%
Level 2 - +25% Flux dissipation rate while venting

After:
Level 1 - Flux +10%
Level 2 - +12.5% Flux dissipation rate while venting (-50% effectiveness due to having an unskilled commander)

It is basically a nasty nerf (at least early game); but I think it would definitely help pry a few points out of me to put in the combat tree.

[DatonKallandor]

Sure if you want to make officers useless.

[Baqar79]

Having an officer would still be better than not having one; I was just suggesting having a penalty in place to hold back the full bonus unless you have the same combat skill yourself (and make the combat skills more attractive without actually buffing them).

Why would it make Officer's useless?

[DatonKallandor]

Because they'd be reduced to barely more than an AI setting at that point. Plus now you're forcing the player who wants to do fleet combat to spend points in explicitly not fleet combat skills so his fleet performs better. It's arbitrary and unintuitive.

"To make your fleet better, put points into those skills that say "piloted ship only"".

[Baqar79]

I concede that it isn't intuitive.  In fact it is almost the same as making the combat skills fleet wide at 50% of the current values; and then halving the officers combat skills by 50%.  By combining the officers and fleet wide skills you get almost the same result (with exception to ships without officers that will still get the fleetwide bonus).

Maybe though if it was done this way it would be more intuitive?

Although i admit, it is a little boring...it does make the combat tree necessary, but it doesn't make it more interesting.  I guess giving specific fleetwide perks is still best (as in 0.7.2a).

Well it did seem like a good idea at the time to me, oh well. 

[DatonKallandor]

Now condensing the skills would be an interesting idea that could work. You'd end up with a bunch of skills that don't have obvious piloted ship benefits and vice versa, but hey I'm pretty sure the skill system isn't final anyway. An overhaul's gonna come sooner or later.

[Embolism]

A better way to do this is to give every "piloted ship only" skill at least one fleet-wide effect (that will be on top of its pilot effects, not like Combat Endurance 2 where there's only a fleet effect and making that level wasted on officers), preferably all at level 3. This allows you to buff these skills without affecting officer balance.

A quick and dirty way to do this would be, for example, merging Fighter Doctrine into Carrier Command, so Carrier Command becomes:

Level 1: -25% fighter crew losses on piloted carrier, -12.5% fighter crew losses on all carriers in the fleet (player only)
Level 2: -25% fighter damage taken on piloted carrier, -12.5% fighter damage taken on all carriers in the fleet (player only)
Level 3 +25% faster fighter replacements on piloted carrier, +12.5% faster fighter replacements on all carriers in the fleet (player only)

This is just an example obviously.

[Alex]

... but hey I'm pretty sure the skill system isn't final anyway. An overhaul's gonna come sooner or later.

Feel compelled to comment: it's pretty darn final. Skills will change, certainly, balancing will happen, but the system itself is pretty much set.

I'm not a fan of the combat tree, as it's benefits mostly only apply to your current driven ship.  Other hired officers can easily get the same abilities as you, and so while this tree might be useful to your piloted ship, I found it preferable to invest my points in other abilities which would have an influence over the whole of the fleet.

Rather than buff the current combat tree, how about making the officers under our command, have their skill effectiveness depend on whether we have the same ability unlocked or not?

I feel like it's basically the job of the combat aptitude to buff your ship. Doing that is an option I'd like to keep, even if it's not as potent as it once was.

Not entirely opposed to, say, adding a few fleet-wide bonuses to tier 3 combat skills or some such. But I don't think applying this through officers is a good idea - it's 1) pretty complicated and 2) means you're almost forced to go leadership if you go combat, to get the most out of combat by getting the most officers.

not like Combat Endurance 2

That's just a display bug, it's a piloted-ship skill.

[DatonKallandor]

Feel compelled to comment: it's pretty darn final. Skills will change, certainly, balancing will happen, but the system itself is pretty much set.

Oh yeah I did just mean numbers and balancing (and maybe a few skills more or less).

[Alex]

Ahh, alright, cool - on the same page, then.

[Baqar79]

I think, the reason I see combat tree as weak, is because I don't actually pilot ships enough myself (I can do it, but I bet anyone else here would show me up pretty quick).  I take a lot of pleasure out of just simply customizing loadouts and trying different weapon combinations together and seeing how the AI deals with a new loadout that you give it (Which is why I tend to notice strange AI behaviour when I see it).

I'm getting the strong impression that you're intending the player to be more hands on in combat; and by mastering this flying; the combat tree skills become invaluable.

Even assuming nothing was done about a fleetwide bonus; it would be nice to actually make the piloted ship bonuses a little better than those of the officers (just so you can lord your superiority over subservient officers!)

Another thought; when transfering command from your flagship to another ship, not only is there a small delay, but when you get there, your flagship becomes commanderless and loses those combat bonuses (I could be wrong here, but it makes sense that the ship you left loses all the bonuses you normally give to it). 

Would it effect things too much if the shuttle transfer was done away with and replaced by some sort of telepresence system that allowed you to instantly swap between ships in the field?

And when swaping with another ship, perhaps have the officer in that ship 'swap' (telepresence/holo-officer), to your ship (Temporarily) so that you have a bit more assurance that you are still giving your flagship over to an officer that will still confer benefits rather then leaving it considerably weakened?

I feel being able to swap quickly between ships in the field would make it more compelling to be hands on.