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Author Topic: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain  (Read 8952 times)

orost

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Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« on: April 27, 2017, 03:13:04 PM »

There is already a thread about SB, but I wanted to focus specifically on its interaction with hyperspace terrain.

The design goal of the terrain is to make the player actively participate in travel, seeking clear routes instead of flying to their destination in a straight line. However, between SB and Navigation perks, this incentive has been removed. If you're SBing with Navigation 3, deep hyperspace slows you down only a tiny bit or not at all and storms slow you only a little, and you'll punch through them so quickly you'll take very little CR damage. It's easier, faster *and* cheaper to just lay in course, turn SB on and take a nap rather than try to actually navigate.

Here are some numbers for a small fleet with base burn 9. Highlighted in red are the numbers that I think are a problem.



Terrain penalties shrink dramatically as you stack bonuses and become almost negligible with all of them.

I propose the following changes:

* Apply hyperspace storm speed reduction after the SB bonus, not before, to reduce SB's impact on speeds in storms
* Replace the +5 burn perk at Navigation 3 with something else. With it, it's possible to bump against the burn 20 cap, and once you're capped, small penalties become irrelevant. (Maybe just straight-up remove it. Transverse Jump is a big enough deal that I'd consider getting Navigation 3 just for it alone.)

With those, the table looks like this:



Navigation 1 still decently reduces terrain impact, and SB still makes travel in clear space much faster, but cannot be used to trivially punch through storms.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 07:34:03 PM by orost »
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ChaseBears

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 03:57:03 PM »

/agree.

Although flying this way did go poorly for me when i blundered through a truely massive field of hyperspace storms (1.5 screens worth at least).. I still only lost a moderate amount of CR.
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Megas

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2017, 04:00:31 PM »

I like it that SB removes storms as an obstacle.  Never liked them.  Getting caught in one was an immediate game reload moment because they often ruined fleets.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2017, 04:28:01 PM »

I'm pretty sure if you've invested in Navigation 3, you kinda deserve to get some kind of reward.
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Megas

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2017, 04:32:52 PM »

I'm pretty sure if you've invested in Navigation 3, you kinda deserve to get some kind of reward.
You do.  Transverse Jump ability is so good.  Near guaranteed 20 burn regardless of fleet composition on top of that is icing on the cake.  That does not mean I want to see SB weakened for the sake of scrappy terrain.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 04:35:23 PM by Megas »
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orost

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 04:33:49 PM »

Quote from: The Soldier
I'm pretty sure if you've invested in Navigation 3, you kinda deserve to get some kind of reward.

Sure. But does it need to be Transverse Jump (an extremely powerful ability) and being able to ignore deep hyperspace and being able to almost ignore hyperspace storms? That's a lot. And do we want a skill that makes a major gameplay mechanic just go away?

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Argonaut

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 04:41:46 PM »

Hyperspace navigation should be removed all-together. It has no new gameplay that systems don't already have and reeks of old school game-padding techniques. Somewhat like the resource gathering of Star Control 2, but much worse. In fact, Star Control 2 itself sports a much more immersive and "game flow-savvy" hyperspace mechanic that doesn't put a swamp between players and where they want to be. The opposite, in fact.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 05:01:56 PM by Argonaut »
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BillyRueben

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 04:48:23 PM »

Hyperspace navigation should be removed all-together. It has no new gameplay that systems don't already have and reeks of old school game-padding techniques. Somewhat like the resource gathering of Star Control, but much worse. In fact, Star Control itself sports a much more immersive and "game flow-savvy" hyperspace mechanic that doesn't put a swamp between players and where they want to be. The opposite, in fact.

Actually kinda like the idea. Hyperspace doesn't really add anything to the game now. S-Burn has completely negated anything interesting happening in hyperspace (other than getting caught in the occasional storm). Point to the system you want to go to, hit the "GO!" button, and you are there.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I'd rather see hyperspace get more interesting and dangerous, but it isn't either of these things now.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 04:49:43 PM »

Nerfing it a bit probably wouldn't be out of the question, as Navigation is indeed pretty powerful.  But the numbers you've attached are far, far too harsh.  Get stuck in there with Sustained Burn on and you're guaranteed to lose 20% CR by time you manage to pass the storm or turn it off and hightail it in the other direction.  Furthermore, the this would really, really hamper with the difficulty of the early game, which we all know is already hard enough to deal with if you're a bit inexperienced.  So no.

If anything, increase the Deep Hyperspace speed nerf a bit more so Nav 3 doesn't completely invalidate it.  By doing that you also make Storms a bit more dangerous.

Actually kinda like the idea. Hyperspace doesn't really add anything to the game now. S-Burn has completely negated anything interesting happening in hyperspace (other than getting caught in the occasional storm). Point to the system you want to go to, hit the "GO!" button, and you are there.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I'd rather see hyperspace get more interesting and dangerous, but it isn't either of these things now.
Well, to be honest, the Lay in Course feature was a bit inevitable.  I don't want to be holding down MB1 for five minutes while I get to my destination.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 04:52:16 PM by The Soldier »
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Megas

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 04:52:00 PM »

The biggest dangers in hyperspace is player not bringing enough fuel and enemies ambushing the player.  Those are fine.
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orost

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 04:56:54 PM »

Quote from: The Soldier
Nerfing it a bit probably wouldn't be out of the question, as Navigation is indeed pretty powerful.  But the numbers you've attached are far, far too harsh.  Get stuck in there with Sustained Burn on and you're guaranteed to lose 20% CR by time you manage to pass the storm or turn it off and hightail it in the other direction.

Don't get stuck, then.

That's kind of the whole point of storms, to reward smart travel and punish carelessness. If you get stuck in one, you deserve to take a hit. If getting stuck in a storm is not dangerous, then we might just as well remove them completely, because then they're just annoying, not a threat. But I'd rather have them be a relevant challenge than gone.
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Megas

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 05:08:07 PM »

Quote
That's kind of the whole point of storms, to reward smart travel and punish carelessness. If you get stuck in one, you deserve to take a hit. If getting stuck in a storm is not dangerous, then we might just as well remove them completely
That is not a bad idea.  I dare say it is a very good idea.  I reload games when I got caught in them during 0.7x.  Today, Sustained Burn makes them irrelevant (I have no Navigation).  One less frustrating thing to deal with, and hyperspace travel is more casual and laid-back.
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orost

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 05:40:43 PM »

I can see how difficult travel can be frustrating if you want the game to be a series of fights with as little of anything else in between as possible. Unfortunately, I don't think that is the way the game is envisioned to be.

The original blog post about hyperspace terrain outlined some design goals the feature was meant to accomplish, and they're pretty much the opposite of "casual and laid-back hyperspace travel". Sustained Burn shifted the situation in that direction, this is a proposal to shift it back without removing SB.

If you don't agree with those design goals and would like hyperspace travel to be casual... well, fine, but that's a wider change to the game's design, while this is just a mechanical change to support existing design. So unless you can convince Alex that hyperspace travel needs to be casual, "this is a bad idea because it would make hyperspace travel difficult" is not exactly a relevant argument here in this thread, because as far as I understand, it's supposed to be difficult. And it currently isn't. Which this idea is meant to fix.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 05:43:56 PM by orost »
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 05:59:37 PM »

Don't get stuck, then.

That's kind of the whole point of storms, to reward smart travel and punish carelessness. If you get stuck in one, you deserve to take a hit. If getting stuck in a storm is not dangerous, then we might just as well remove them completely, because then they're just annoying, not a threat. But I'd rather have them be a relevant challenge than gone.
You do take a hit if you go through a storm.  If it's early game.  It's the early game where you are given these challenges and risks.  By time you're level 40, it shouldn't matter too much.
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FooF

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Re: Nerf Sustained Burn w.r.t. hyperspace terrain
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2017, 06:32:05 PM »

Hyperspace travel would be much more interesting if there was more randomness/danger involved.

Deep hyperspace/storms *should* cause you to pay attention but if there were also ways to improve your travel efficiency, that would also be cool and good.

I think we all know what we really want though: freaking hyperspace monsters that eat fleets.
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